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are women less interested in pursuing these subjects? This has always been the case. Just as men are less likely to be nurses/grade school teachers, they don'

are women less interested in pursuing these subjects? This has always been the case. Just as men are less likely to be nurses/grade school teachers, they don't play to each sex's strengths. And that's ok

ghaff 5y ago
"Preferences" is probably a better term than "strengths" in that context though that doesn't really say anything about root causes.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
Unfortunately HR departments just look at the employment statistics and decide that the numbers need to be 50/50, for some reason. Well they do at my work place anyway.
nicoburns 5y ago
There may be an effect like this, but it’s worth noting that you don’t see these biases in the same way in single-sex high schools, which would indicate a high degree of social norms influencing things.
danShumway 5y ago
This ignores many of the larger historical trends in fields like computing: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-used-to-be-womens-work-718061/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmi... It can often be a surprising exercise to look at the history of fields that are supposed to play to "natural" gender strengths and examine how they've evolved over time. > As computer scientist Dr. Grace Hopper told a reporter, programming was "just like planning a dinner. You have to plan ahead and schedule everything so that it's ready when you need it... Women are 'naturals' at computer programming." James Adams, the director of education for the Association for Computing Machinery, agreed: "I don’t know of any other field, outside of teaching, where there's as much opportunity for a woman." Swap out some of the specifics, and the general tone of argument hasn't changed much since back then. It's just that we've now decided to substitute in other "obvious" conclusions about who is suited for which jobs.
- TheFreim 5y ago
  I don't have any specific criticisms but I do think it's relevant to point out that the nature of things like computing, and other subjects, changed over time. To say computing is the same today as it was back then would be an error (not trying to insinuate you say otherwise, just believe it's important to note).
  - danShumway 5y ago
    I agree in general, but my understanding is that if anything the technical challenges that people point out today as attracting analytical male brains were even harder in the past. The earliest computer programs were written by hand without access to the computers themselves. I don't think programming was a field that used to be about people skills and slowly morphed into something analytic and technical today, programming today seems to me to be much more user-friendly and social.
- snek_case 5y ago
  > As computer scientist Dr. Grace Hopper told a reporter, programming was "just like planning a dinner. I have no doubt that Grace Hopper turned out to be a great programmer and made many great contributions to the field, but it turns out she was in the army, and she was ordered to go work on a computing effort, it wasn't her choice: "In 1944, Lt. Grace Hopper was ordered to report to Harvard University to work on the Mark I, the behemoth digital computer that had been conceived by Harvard's Howard" The idea that there may be some natural differences in preferences (things that interest you the most) between men and women is controversial for some reason, but this idea shouldn't be seen as sexist. If it turns out that men really are more drawn to engineering (on average, this is obviously not true for everyone) because of some underlying biological development factors, shouldn't we try to understand why? Being more drawn to engineering doesn't mean you're automatically better at it. It just means you're probably more likely to go into the field and more likely to spend long hours studying it. Right now the politically correct thing to do is to just reject that hypothesis and insist that all of these differences have to be nurture. I mean, why spend precious capital studying these things when we've already decided what is the correct answer, right?
czbond 5y ago
I fear your comment will be downvoted once the "this is HN, but I'll act like it is Reddit" crew arrive because you hurt someones feelings.
mywittyname 5y ago
I know a few male nurses, and it's still a profession where men are somewhat looked down upon. There's nothing about nursing that is gender-specific (except that being large & strong is an asset at times). But for some reason, a male nurse is seen as someone who wasn't good enough to be a doctor.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > a male nurse is seen as someone who wasn't good enough to be a doctor. With advanced degrees becoming more and more common, it's also more and more likely the nurse seeing you has the same number of years of schooling as the doctor.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  In the UK, experienced NHS nurses can be better than doctors. I don't think anyone looks down on nurses in the UK if they have spent anytime in hospital.
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    I'm coming from a USA perspective. It's great to hear that this non-sense is no prevalent everywhere.
- fsckboy 5y ago
  >There's nothing about nursing that is gender-specific There is everything about nursing that is gender specific. Men are interested in things, women are interested in people https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19883140/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19883140/
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    So do you think other medical professions are also gender specific and should be heavily weighted towards women? Because they aren't. Physicians skew male, yet, physicians deal with people! Why is it different when a woman is taking vitals and walking through a diagnostic checklist than when a man is doing it? Is there something special about being a women that makes the better at drawing blood or placing IVs?
rrose 5y ago
it may be true that women are and always have been less interested in pursuing STEM subjects, but it is basically impossible to draw any conclusions about each sex's "strengths" from that fact. The tech world is notoriously unwelcoming to women, tons of unconscious biases push women away from STEM, societal pressure/general atmosphere tends to encourage women to focus on things other than their career, etc. In light of all that it is hard to say whether women don't want to get into STEM because of some natural disinclination, or simply because all of these other things make STEM less desirable for them.

ghaff 5y ago

"Preferences" is probably a better term than "strengths" in that context though that doesn't really say anything about root causes.

CodeGlitch 5y ago

Unfortunately HR departments just look at the employment statistics and decide that the numbers need to be 50/50, for some reason. Well they do at my work place anyway.

nicoburns 5y ago

There may be an effect like this, but it’s worth noting that you don’t see these biases in the same way in single-sex high schools, which would indicate a high degree of social norms influencing things.

danShumway 5y ago

This ignores many of the larger historical trends in fields like computing: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-used-to-be-womens-work-718061/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmi... It can often be a surprising exercise to look at the history of fields that are supposed to play to "natural" gender strengths and examine how they've evolved over time. > As computer scientist Dr. Grace Hopper told a reporter, programming was "just like planning a dinner. You have to plan ahead and schedule everything so that it's ready when you need it... Women are 'naturals' at computer programming." James Adams, the director of education for the Association for Computing Machinery, agreed: "I don’t know of any other field, outside of teaching, where there's as much opportunity for a woman." Swap out some of the specifics, and the general tone of argument hasn't changed much since back then. It's just that we've now decided to substitute in other "obvious" conclusions about who is suited for which jobs.

TheFreim 5y ago
I don't have any specific criticisms but I do think it's relevant to point out that the nature of things like computing, and other subjects, changed over time. To say computing is the same today as it was back then would be an error (not trying to insinuate you say otherwise, just believe it's important to note).
- danShumway 5y ago
  I agree in general, but my understanding is that if anything the technical challenges that people point out today as attracting analytical male brains were even harder in the past. The earliest computer programs were written by hand without access to the computers themselves. I don't think programming was a field that used to be about people skills and slowly morphed into something analytic and technical today, programming today seems to me to be much more user-friendly and social.
snek_case 5y ago
> As computer scientist Dr. Grace Hopper told a reporter, programming was "just like planning a dinner. I have no doubt that Grace Hopper turned out to be a great programmer and made many great contributions to the field, but it turns out she was in the army, and she was ordered to go work on a computing effort, it wasn't her choice: "In 1944, Lt. Grace Hopper was ordered to report to Harvard University to work on the Mark I, the behemoth digital computer that had been conceived by Harvard's Howard" The idea that there may be some natural differences in preferences (things that interest you the most) between men and women is controversial for some reason, but this idea shouldn't be seen as sexist. If it turns out that men really are more drawn to engineering (on average, this is obviously not true for everyone) because of some underlying biological development factors, shouldn't we try to understand why? Being more drawn to engineering doesn't mean you're automatically better at it. It just means you're probably more likely to go into the field and more likely to spend long hours studying it. Right now the politically correct thing to do is to just reject that hypothesis and insist that all of these differences have to be nurture. I mean, why spend precious capital studying these things when we've already decided what is the correct answer, right?

czbond 5y ago

I fear your comment will be downvoted once the "this is HN, but I'll act like it is Reddit" crew arrive because you hurt someones feelings.

mywittyname 5y ago

I know a few male nurses, and it's still a profession where men are somewhat looked down upon. There's nothing about nursing that is gender-specific (except that being large & strong is an asset at times). But for some reason, a male nurse is seen as someone who wasn't good enough to be a doctor.

908B64B197 5y ago
> a male nurse is seen as someone who wasn't good enough to be a doctor. With advanced degrees becoming more and more common, it's also more and more likely the nurse seeing you has the same number of years of schooling as the doctor.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
In the UK, experienced NHS nurses can be better than doctors. I don't think anyone looks down on nurses in the UK if they have spent anytime in hospital.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  I'm coming from a USA perspective. It's great to hear that this non-sense is no prevalent everywhere.
fsckboy 5y ago
>There's nothing about nursing that is gender-specific There is everything about nursing that is gender specific. Men are interested in things, women are interested in people https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19883140/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19883140/
- mywittyname 5y ago
  So do you think other medical professions are also gender specific and should be heavily weighted towards women? Because they aren't. Physicians skew male, yet, physicians deal with people! Why is it different when a woman is taking vitals and walking through a diagnostic checklist than when a man is doing it? Is there something special about being a women that makes the better at drawing blood or placing IVs?

rrose 5y ago

it may be true that women are and always have been less interested in pursuing STEM subjects, but it is basically impossible to draw any conclusions about each sex's "strengths" from that fact. The tech world is notoriously unwelcoming to women, tons of unconscious biases push women away from STEM, societal pressure/general atmosphere tends to encourage women to focus on things other than their career, etc. In light of all that it is hard to say whether women don't want to get into STEM because of some natural disinclination, or simply because all of these other things make STEM less desirable for them.