3 ms·

Probably some of both, but it seems empirically true that men are more likely to be interested in these from a relatively young age, at least the way society is

by ajkjk 5y ago

Probably some of both, but it seems empirically true that men are more likely to be interested in these from a relatively young age, at least the way society is structured right now. By that I mean: there were way more 'nerdy' boys than girls in every school I attended growing up, and those tend to be the ranks that feed the math/CS/engineering programs.

ghaff 5y ago
And many people (reasonably IMO) also observe that, more or less uniquely outside of the arts, CS (or programming really) at the university level often seems to assume prior background. It's not a hard prerequisite but programs at better universities that I've seen don't seem to be designed for people who go into college and decide to dip their toe into CS for more or less the first time. The evidence is that the percentage of women in CS programs started declining pretty much in line with home computing and gaming started to become common.
- ajkjk 5y ago
  fwiw there are a few people who dip their toes in at that point, and sometimes it works. In fact in my program I think most of the women in the field got in that way (especially because the department was heavily advertising to women -- and really just to anyone who wasn't already into it). The bigger issue, though, I think is that computer-savviness is such a.. skill ... that it's super hard to get _really_ good at it in a college degree; you need to be heavily computer-literate already to excel. Not as a rule exactly: these days, anyone reasonable savvy person can learn CS well enough to be employed in tech and any math-savvy person can certainly end up in CS research. But it is, I think, _super_ hard to start learning programming in college and actually end up good at _low_-level computing like Kernel/Systems level stuff, which really requires like total immersion in the space, similar to learning a language by living in the country. In my program this meant that the really technical classes were filled with the students who came in already very computer-literate and into programming, and they tended to be 90+% male.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I'm willing to bet that a lot of the most senior (i.e. older) engineers in tech today, never touched a computer until university. That said, times are of course different. The idea that you'd teach a super-basic never touched a computer course to (non-CS) engineers using textbook like this at a top school [1] today is pretty much risible. (There are exceptions. I'd characterize Charles Severance's MOOC from UMich as a true beginner class. But, by contrast, I think I'd find MIT's intro class in the CS department (6.001) impossibly difficult if I was having to basically learn to actually learn simple programming on the side.) [1] https://www2.seas.gwu.edu/~kaufman1/FortranColoringBook/ColoringBkCover.html https://www2.seas.gwu.edu/~kaufman1/FortranColoringBook/Colo...
    - ajkjk 5y ago
      Yeah, could be. But in a CS degree program in the 2000s/2010s, the upper classes seemed to be 80% people who started coding on graphics calculators in middle school, or something equivalent.
      - ghaff 5y ago
        I'm really talking about earlier. I didn't have a calculator until I started college :-) The first dip in bachelor's degrees in CS for women started in about 1985. [1] It dipped again beginning in about 2000. [1]https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declining-female-share-of-computer-science-degrees-from-28-to-18/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declinin...
- chongli 5y ago
  I wouldn't say CS is particularly special in this regard. Few people lacking prior mathematics background are going to succeed as math majors. The main difference is that math training is a mandatory part of the curriculum throughout elementary school and much of high school, in addition to being a pre-requisite for most university math programs. If CS was mandatory from grades 1-12 then things might be a lot less skewed in those first year introductory CS courses. Of course you're still going to run into the issue of kids who take up programming as a hobby at a young age and arrive at university with a large lead in skills. On the other hand I've seen math students who have done the same thing.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Aside from maybe intro calculus, I'm not sure what math you learn in K-12 has a lot to do with being a math major. Of course, you need some math (arithmetic) foundation for almost everything. I actually did well in math throughout high school but it wasn't a particularly strong skill of mine in university. And I could have no more majored in math (or physics) than I could have flapped my arms and flown.
    - chongli 5y ago
      The math you learn in K-12 is necessary but not sufficient. My secondary point still stands. Just as there are kids out there who grew up programming in their bedrooms who come into first year CS and crush it, there are kids out there studying extra math and writing math contests etc who will come into first year with a big advantage.

by ajkjk 5y ago

ghaff 5y ago

And many people (reasonably IMO) also observe that, more or less uniquely outside of the arts, CS (or programming really) at the university level often seems to assume prior background. It's not a hard prerequisite but programs at better universities that I've seen don't seem to be designed for people who go into college and decide to dip their toe into CS for more or less the first time. The evidence is that the percentage of women in CS programs started declining pretty much in line with home computing and gaming started to become common.

ajkjk 5y ago
fwiw there are a few people who dip their toes in at that point, and sometimes it works. In fact in my program I think most of the women in the field got in that way (especially because the department was heavily advertising to women -- and really just to anyone who wasn't already into it). The bigger issue, though, I think is that computer-savviness is such a.. skill ... that it's super hard to get _really_ good at it in a college degree; you need to be heavily computer-literate already to excel. Not as a rule exactly: these days, anyone reasonable savvy person can learn CS well enough to be employed in tech and any math-savvy person can certainly end up in CS research. But it is, I think, _super_ hard to start learning programming in college and actually end up good at _low_-level computing like Kernel/Systems level stuff, which really requires like total immersion in the space, similar to learning a language by living in the country. In my program this meant that the really technical classes were filled with the students who came in already very computer-literate and into programming, and they tended to be 90+% male.
- ghaff 5y ago
  I'm willing to bet that a lot of the most senior (i.e. older) engineers in tech today, never touched a computer until university. That said, times are of course different. The idea that you'd teach a super-basic never touched a computer course to (non-CS) engineers using textbook like this at a top school [1] today is pretty much risible. (There are exceptions. I'd characterize Charles Severance's MOOC from UMich as a true beginner class. But, by contrast, I think I'd find MIT's intro class in the CS department (6.001) impossibly difficult if I was having to basically learn to actually learn simple programming on the side.) [1] https://www2.seas.gwu.edu/~kaufman1/FortranColoringBook/ColoringBkCover.html https://www2.seas.gwu.edu/~kaufman1/FortranColoringBook/Colo...
  - ajkjk 5y ago
    Yeah, could be. But in a CS degree program in the 2000s/2010s, the upper classes seemed to be 80% people who started coding on graphics calculators in middle school, or something equivalent.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      I'm really talking about earlier. I didn't have a calculator until I started college :-) The first dip in bachelor's degrees in CS for women started in about 1985. [1] It dipped again beginning in about 2000. [1]https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declining-female-share-of-computer-science-degrees-from-28-to-18/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-the-declinin...
chongli 5y ago
I wouldn't say CS is particularly special in this regard. Few people lacking prior mathematics background are going to succeed as math majors. The main difference is that math training is a mandatory part of the curriculum throughout elementary school and much of high school, in addition to being a pre-requisite for most university math programs. If CS was mandatory from grades 1-12 then things might be a lot less skewed in those first year introductory CS courses. Of course you're still going to run into the issue of kids who take up programming as a hobby at a young age and arrive at university with a large lead in skills. On the other hand I've seen math students who have done the same thing.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Aside from maybe intro calculus, I'm not sure what math you learn in K-12 has a lot to do with being a math major. Of course, you need some math (arithmetic) foundation for almost everything. I actually did well in math throughout high school but it wasn't a particularly strong skill of mine in university. And I could have no more majored in math (or physics) than I could have flapped my arms and flown.
  - chongli 5y ago
    The math you learn in K-12 is necessary but not sufficient. My secondary point still stands. Just as there are kids out there who grew up programming in their bedrooms who come into first year CS and crush it, there are kids out there studying extra math and writing math contests etc who will come into first year with a big advantage.