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You're right, I take a more aggressive stance on this sort of thing than others might. I'm also known to say "if you can't afford to pay your workers a living w

You're right, I take a more aggressive stance on this sort of thing than others might. I'm also known to say "if you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage you can't afford to do business" of many retail/service environments. "But I need to make money, too" isn't an excuse. It wants to be, but it is not. I would agree that the biggest offender is the predatory model, but I would say that the way to do this _correctly_ is to do it free/OSS with a patreon. Let folks who use it pay what they think it's worth. The problem is that the incentive systems don't align. Someone elsewhere mentioned that this seemed to build dependency in its users (an anti-pattern in therapeutics (and elsewhere, but let's be specific to therapeutics for now)). With something like Patreon, the incentives are much closer aligned: the app _has_ to do good in order to well, because otherwise nobody will pay for it. Again, they (the developers) could also put their time & energy into enacting systemic change.

JohnBooty 5y ago
"But I need to make money, too" isn't an excuse. It wants to be, but it is not. There's another way to phrase that. "But I would like to buy food, clothing, and pay my rent" isn't an excuse. It wants to be, but it is not. People need food and places to live. The vast majority of people on Earth aren't fortunate enough to have a year or two worth of savings to tide them over while they work on some dream project that I would say your incentives don't align. By effectively restricting the privilege of app/product creation to those people that have a strong economic cushion, you're effectively excluding most of the people on Earth, particularly those that not already wealthy and particularly those with people besides themselves to care for. "if you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage you can't afford to do business" of many retail/service environments. But app creators should just do it for free? Until the money maaaaybe rolls in? Most business/apps/etc fail.
- what_is_orcas 5y ago
  > People need food and places to live. Yeah, and under capitalism, these are linked to some capitalist idea of productivity. We're getting a little far from the original point of this thread, but I'd argue that food & shelter & healthcare shouldn't be linked to "productivity". I think the way that this is applicable here is that when the private sector gets involved in an issue, it can be a lot harder for the issue to be addressed by the public sector. That's a really big topic, I'd suggest reading Winners Take All[0] for a more in-depth look at this. I'll leave this at: some things shouldn't be monetized (and this is one of them). > I would say your incentives don't align. I'm not sure what you mean. What are my incentives here? > But app creators should just do it for free? There are plenty of consumer spaces where I don't complain (publicly) about app-creators getting involved. This, being a "mental health" app, is an area where the public sector getting involved could be detrimental (see my comment elsewhere where I ask if this could be harmful in the long run). [0] https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/539747/winners-take-all-by-anand-giridharadas/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/539747/winners-take...
JohnBooty 5y ago
I'm also known to say "if you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage you can't afford to do business" of many retail/service environments. Also, how the heck do you reconcile this with your stance that people shouldn't try and make money from their apps? I would say, "if you can't afford to pay your developers and other employees a living wage, then you can't afford to make an app or launch a product" I don't think you've thought any of this through, man. You have some excellent ideals and I agree with them but you need to think through the practical ramifications.
- what_is_orcas 5y ago
  > Also, how the heck do you reconcile this with your stance that people shouldn't try and make money from their apps? I think I addressed this in my other reply, but I'll reiterate: given the economic system we exist in, I'm not against people making money from their apps, I'm against certain areas better suited to public works being entered by the private sector (especially in a predatory way). > I would say, "if you can't afford to pay your developers and other employees a living wage, then you can't afford to make an app or launch a product" I totally agree with this. > I don't think you've thought any of this through, man. I try really hard to be internally consistent, but I'm imperfect. I'd be interested in hearing what I'm not thinking through, because I feel like this is an area where I have. The respond to the quote at the top of your comment: I've been reading & hearing about a lot of restaurant owners complaining that they can't afford to pay their workers a living wage for $REASONS (this happens a lot in restaurants, specifically). My response is exactly what you quoted (and I'll type it again): If you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage, then you can't afford to do business. Asking anyone to work for a sub-living wage is essentially asking for them to subsidize your business, and, in an area that differs dramatically from start-ups, these restaurant workers generally aren't given equity as compensation (which would tie their wage to the success of the restaurant). I'll admit that my thoughts in this area are complicated, because we live in a capitalist community (at least here in the US) so there are some concessions that I have to make. Do I think capitalism is viable in the long run? No. But I also think it is a fool's errand to wait for a revolution, so I think my thoughts get a little more nuanced when it comes to working ethically within an inherently unethical system (and I'm being very liberal with what I consider ethical work, by necessity). I'd love to keep this conversation going. I know I have a lot to learn & that there's a lot that I don't know that I don't know. Conversations like this, that challenge my ideas, can only lead to a better understanding of my concerns and thoughts. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comments.

JohnBooty 5y ago

"But I need to make money, too" isn't an excuse. It wants to be, but it is not. There's another way to phrase that. "But I would like to buy food, clothing, and pay my rent" isn't an excuse. It wants to be, but it is not. People need food and places to live. The vast majority of people on Earth aren't fortunate enough to have a year or two worth of savings to tide them over while they work on some dream project that I would say your incentives don't align. By effectively restricting the privilege of app/product creation to those people that have a strong economic cushion, you're effectively excluding most of the people on Earth, particularly those that not already wealthy and particularly those with people besides themselves to care for. "if you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage you can't afford to do business" of many retail/service environments. But app creators should just do it for free? Until the money maaaaybe rolls in? Most business/apps/etc fail.

what_is_orcas 5y ago
> People need food and places to live. Yeah, and under capitalism, these are linked to some capitalist idea of productivity. We're getting a little far from the original point of this thread, but I'd argue that food & shelter & healthcare shouldn't be linked to "productivity". I think the way that this is applicable here is that when the private sector gets involved in an issue, it can be a lot harder for the issue to be addressed by the public sector. That's a really big topic, I'd suggest reading Winners Take All[0] for a more in-depth look at this. I'll leave this at: some things shouldn't be monetized (and this is one of them). > I would say your incentives don't align. I'm not sure what you mean. What are my incentives here? > But app creators should just do it for free? There are plenty of consumer spaces where I don't complain (publicly) about app-creators getting involved. This, being a "mental health" app, is an area where the public sector getting involved could be detrimental (see my comment elsewhere where I ask if this could be harmful in the long run). [0] https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/539747/winners-take-all-by-anand-giridharadas/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/539747/winners-take...

JohnBooty 5y ago

I'm also known to say "if you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage you can't afford to do business" of many retail/service environments. Also, how the heck do you reconcile this with your stance that people shouldn't try and make money from their apps? I would say, "if you can't afford to pay your developers and other employees a living wage, then you can't afford to make an app or launch a product" I don't think you've thought any of this through, man. You have some excellent ideals and I agree with them but you need to think through the practical ramifications.

what_is_orcas 5y ago
> Also, how the heck do you reconcile this with your stance that people shouldn't try and make money from their apps? I think I addressed this in my other reply, but I'll reiterate: given the economic system we exist in, I'm not against people making money from their apps, I'm against certain areas better suited to public works being entered by the private sector (especially in a predatory way). > I would say, "if you can't afford to pay your developers and other employees a living wage, then you can't afford to make an app or launch a product" I totally agree with this. > I don't think you've thought any of this through, man. I try really hard to be internally consistent, but I'm imperfect. I'd be interested in hearing what I'm not thinking through, because I feel like this is an area where I have. The respond to the quote at the top of your comment: I've been reading & hearing about a lot of restaurant owners complaining that they can't afford to pay their workers a living wage for $REASONS (this happens a lot in restaurants, specifically). My response is exactly what you quoted (and I'll type it again): If you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage, then you can't afford to do business. Asking anyone to work for a sub-living wage is essentially asking for them to subsidize your business, and, in an area that differs dramatically from start-ups, these restaurant workers generally aren't given equity as compensation (which would tie their wage to the success of the restaurant). I'll admit that my thoughts in this area are complicated, because we live in a capitalist community (at least here in the US) so there are some concessions that I have to make. Do I think capitalism is viable in the long run? No. But I also think it is a fool's errand to wait for a revolution, so I think my thoughts get a little more nuanced when it comes to working ethically within an inherently unethical system (and I'm being very liberal with what I consider ethical work, by necessity). I'd love to keep this conversation going. I know I have a lot to learn & that there's a lot that I don't know that I don't know. Conversations like this, that challenge my ideas, can only lead to a better understanding of my concerns and thoughts. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comments.