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You can ask that for every single behavior that anyone claims goes against their deeper values like good health. Why do people keep smoking or eating junk food

You can ask that for every single behavior that anyone claims goes against their deeper values like good health. Why do people keep smoking or eating junk food or staying up too late or yelling at family and friends when they lose their temper? It's true that deeds speak louder than words. But it's also true that habits are hard to break, and there's the thinking-fast-and-slow ideas that our judgments, actions, and values are different when we are in the immediate flow of emotion vs considering the big picture with detachment. If you ask "why" in a sincere curious way, there's a ton of interesting things to investigate. I hope that was the attitude you meant as opposed to the anti-curious condescending "why" that amounts to just being a doubter.

azangru 5y ago
> If you ask "why" in a sincere curious way No, I was asking why in a frustrated rhetorical way. I get annoyed by the frequency with which people complain about social media, which is usually followed by requests for a government intervention or for a stricter moderation by the network owners. Just quit, I want to say. The internet is huge. Find yourself another hobby. A better network. Or, if you think you are addicted, as you may be to alcohol or drugs, seek help. It should be your responsibility, don't put it on others.
- quadrangle 5y ago
  Thanks for your honest clarification. I totally get your reaction, and I have similar reactions myself all the time. Some wisdom I got from elsewhere which I'm still working to practice is to eat-your-projections. We notice how other people are complainers and blamers and they make excuses and don't take responsibility. So, we turn it around and ask, "how am I being a complainer and blamer?" And we might notice how we're complaining about the complainers. And best to find this self-reflection humorous. If we switch to blaming ourselves for complaining, we're still blaming and complaining. Ideally, we find some empathy as we realize now something about how the complainers feel, and we realize that we didn't stop to be really curious about what is going on in their experience. I agree with you completely about the value of taking responsibility. It's SO SO hard (I'm speaking for myself here!) to turn that around and literally ask, "what am I doing to take responsibility for this situation?" I.e. the situation in which other people were complaining, and their complaining triggered you, and you're unconsciously blaming them for your annoyed feelings instead of taking responsibility for your failure to be stoic. Sorry for all the meta, this is stuff I am practicing, and it really seems the only "out" to the pattern. And really, take everything I just wrote as me noticing your patterns because I have them myself. I'm working on leading by example before telling you what you "should" do ("shoulding you" in one way to say it). I'm laughing about this and about myself here, so I hope somehow that comes across in this overlong plain-text which I should expect to be misunderstood if I take my own damn advice. Haha ;)
passivate 5y ago
>You can ask that for every single behavior that anyone claims goes against their deeper values like good health. Why do people keep smoking or eating junk food or staying up too late or yelling at family and friends when they lose their temper? Okay, but who other than that individual person is to blame for their behavior? If we blame external agents for all of societies ills, that completely devalues personal responsibility. I don't buy the "facebook made me do it" defense.
- quadrangle 5y ago
  You're already in a less open, less curious state when your language is that of "blame". The more open-minded curious approach uses language more around cause and effect and studying causes vs correlations and looking for empirical evidence about how the world works. When you notice that you are looking for who to blame, then the best thing for learning is to investigate your own reactive (though perhaps very subtly reactive) state. "Facebook made me do it" is a blaming state too, and it leads nowhere to get stuck in that blaming mindset.
  - passivate 5y ago
    Wow, that was rude of you. Sorry, you being judgy and condescending about my mental state and whether I am or not curious is not conducive to a conversation here. I'll let you have the last word.
    - quadrangle 5y ago
      Oh, oops, I'm sorry about my sloppy writing that seemed rude. I intended the generic "you". I see now how that failed to come across. I wrote: > You're already in a less open, less curious state when your language is that of "blame". And DUH, that reads first to almost anyone (including myself on re-reading) as "you (yes, you, person I'm replying to) are in a less open state… blah blah blah" When what I meant to express was the other way around in the emphasis. The better edit could be: When our language is that of "blame", it's a good indicator of being in a less open, less curious state. And I only mean that in terms of a general idea that being in a blaming mindset is a common thing, and it's not as conducive to real curious learning as other ways of talking about something. I didn't really know what your mindset was before, but I think I now know that at least after reading my poorly-phrased post, you then were in a triggered and reactive state. I'm sorry about that. Thanks for replying so that I could learn from this instead of me not noticing the issues with my post. P.S. I think condescension is the worst derailer of any communication, and I don't blame you for reacting when you read my post as having that tone. I didn't actually have a condescending view. I get into reactive blaming states too, and I don't think I'm any better than you, and I don't think there's any shame in having common reactive feelings.

azangru 5y ago

> If you ask "why" in a sincere curious way No, I was asking why in a frustrated rhetorical way. I get annoyed by the frequency with which people complain about social media, which is usually followed by requests for a government intervention or for a stricter moderation by the network owners. Just quit, I want to say. The internet is huge. Find yourself another hobby. A better network. Or, if you think you are addicted, as you may be to alcohol or drugs, seek help. It should be your responsibility, don't put it on others.

quadrangle 5y ago
Thanks for your honest clarification. I totally get your reaction, and I have similar reactions myself all the time. Some wisdom I got from elsewhere which I'm still working to practice is to eat-your-projections. We notice how other people are complainers and blamers and they make excuses and don't take responsibility. So, we turn it around and ask, "how am I being a complainer and blamer?" And we might notice how we're complaining about the complainers. And best to find this self-reflection humorous. If we switch to blaming ourselves for complaining, we're still blaming and complaining. Ideally, we find some empathy as we realize now something about how the complainers feel, and we realize that we didn't stop to be really curious about what is going on in their experience. I agree with you completely about the value of taking responsibility. It's SO SO hard (I'm speaking for myself here!) to turn that around and literally ask, "what am I doing to take responsibility for this situation?" I.e. the situation in which other people were complaining, and their complaining triggered you, and you're unconsciously blaming them for your annoyed feelings instead of taking responsibility for your failure to be stoic. Sorry for all the meta, this is stuff I am practicing, and it really seems the only "out" to the pattern. And really, take everything I just wrote as me noticing your patterns because I have them myself. I'm working on leading by example before telling you what you "should" do ("shoulding you" in one way to say it). I'm laughing about this and about myself here, so I hope somehow that comes across in this overlong plain-text which I should expect to be misunderstood if I take my own damn advice. Haha ;)

passivate 5y ago

>You can ask that for every single behavior that anyone claims goes against their deeper values like good health. Why do people keep smoking or eating junk food or staying up too late or yelling at family and friends when they lose their temper? Okay, but who other than that individual person is to blame for their behavior? If we blame external agents for all of societies ills, that completely devalues personal responsibility. I don't buy the "facebook made me do it" defense.

quadrangle 5y ago
You're already in a less open, less curious state when your language is that of "blame". The more open-minded curious approach uses language more around cause and effect and studying causes vs correlations and looking for empirical evidence about how the world works. When you notice that you are looking for who to blame, then the best thing for learning is to investigate your own reactive (though perhaps very subtly reactive) state. "Facebook made me do it" is a blaming state too, and it leads nowhere to get stuck in that blaming mindset.
- passivate 5y ago
  Wow, that was rude of you. Sorry, you being judgy and condescending about my mental state and whether I am or not curious is not conducive to a conversation here. I'll let you have the last word.
  - quadrangle 5y ago
    Oh, oops, I'm sorry about my sloppy writing that seemed rude. I intended the generic "you". I see now how that failed to come across. I wrote: > You're already in a less open, less curious state when your language is that of "blame". And DUH, that reads first to almost anyone (including myself on re-reading) as "you (yes, you, person I'm replying to) are in a less open state… blah blah blah" When what I meant to express was the other way around in the emphasis. The better edit could be: When our language is that of "blame", it's a good indicator of being in a less open, less curious state. And I only mean that in terms of a general idea that being in a blaming mindset is a common thing, and it's not as conducive to real curious learning as other ways of talking about something. I didn't really know what your mindset was before, but I think I now know that at least after reading my poorly-phrased post, you then were in a triggered and reactive state. I'm sorry about that. Thanks for replying so that I could learn from this instead of me not noticing the issues with my post. P.S. I think condescension is the worst derailer of any communication, and I don't blame you for reacting when you read my post as having that tone. I didn't actually have a condescending view. I get into reactive blaming states too, and I don't think I'm any better than you, and I don't think there's any shame in having common reactive feelings.