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I've noticed not only the local 7-11 PoS terminals now have embedded cameras, but also Home Depot's newer all-in-one computers at the self-checkout include an e

I've noticed not only the local 7-11 PoS terminals now have embedded cameras, but also Home Depot's newer all-in-one computers at the self-checkout include an embedded camera. It's obnoxious and rude. You wouldn't be OK with anyone shoving a camera point-blank in your face while doing business with them. That's exactly what these businesses are subjecting their in-person retail customers to.

hammock 5y ago
>I've noticed not only the local 7-11 PoS terminals now have embedded cameras, but also Home Depot's newer all-in-one computers at the self-checkout include an embedded camera. Starbucks card readers too. Pointed right up at your face. I emailed the local store manager about it, who said he'd get back to me but never did.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  What did you expect the local store manager was going to be able to say or do?
  - hammock 5y ago
    Get me a policy or some sort of response in writing from their corporate overlords. Edit: just got an update. Here's what he said: >So sorry for never responding! We are not using the cameras on the POS card readers. You will see when it asks you to swipe the card that it has an eye crossed out to signify that it is not actively using the camera to look at the customer.
    - leppr 5y ago
      Sounds like someone at Starbucks saw your HN comment and ran a search for your email to ping the relevant manager. Impressive if not just a coincidence.
      - hammock 5y ago
        Ha that would be cool but actually I just followed up on my old email
- reaperducer 5y ago
  Starbucks card readers too. Pointed right up at your face Here's your act of civil disobedience for the day: Try to remember to bring a tiny strip of Scotch tape with you the next time you're at Starbucks. If you do remember, and if nobody's looking, put the tape over the lens. Hopefully the piece of tape is small enough to be inconspicuous, and fuzzy enough from being in your pocket that it ruins the camera's view.
  - hammock 5y ago
    Yep i don't visit enough Starbucks that often anymore but that's not a terrible idea
jimmaswell 5y ago
When's the last time retail didn't have cameras, the 60s?
- belter 5y ago
  I hope then you dont mind I point my camera at you? :-) https://youtu.be/AQgiLK5HuiA https://youtu.be/AQgiLK5HuiA
- pengaru 5y ago
  There's a substantial difference between areal cameras for loss prevention and a camera literally inches from your face in terms of invasiveness and hostility.
  - belter 5y ago
    You do not know what zoom level they are in the shop, most likely they have microphones on and their resolution: http://www.ltsecurityinc.com/citysurveillance http://www.ltsecurityinc.com/citysurveillance The only difference is that in one case, you are conscious on being filmed. In another case you know you are being filmed, but you prefer not to think about it...
    - pengaru 5y ago
      What's your point? The areal cameras in the shop, regardless of zoom level, are not being replaced by the cameras in your face and only in your face; it's an additive situation. The cameras in your face are only effective for capturing your face/person in detail, and they are presumably being applied to every customer wholesale, automatically during checkout, and probably associated with your purchase and payment information. You're arguing as if this isn't any different than the status quo, when it obviously is. Now we not only have the areal cameras that were presumably only zoomed-in on suspicious behaving customers for loss prevention, we also have every single in-person purchase being captured zoomed-in, regardless of behavior, with a camera lens right in your face. It's as if retail has decided to actively encourage everyone with any shred of self-respect to stop shopping retail and buy everything from Amazon. If you treat me like a presumed criminal I'm going to take my business elsewhere. What's next, metal detectors and armed guards at the doors?
alistairSH 5y ago
Except that's not what 7-11 did here. They took photos from a tablet, as select customers were taking a survey. Doing that without consent is still obnoxious, but a far cry from embedding a camera in the PoS terminal that captures everybody as they check-out. 7-11 might also do that, but it wasn't reported here.
- kjaftaedi 5y ago
  They did it with consent. The issue is that regardless of whether the users gave consent, their actions still ran afoul of Australian law.
  - theteapot 5y ago
    There was no consent. I've done that "survey". No idea my photo was being taken or that there was even a camera.
- sixothree 5y ago
  Ok. Firstly, whoever did that is one sick creep. Secondly, Why!? What value is added?
- truemotive 5y ago
  the laziness of it all would be funny, if it didn’t indicate that people have to now be on the lookout at this casual of a level.
dylan604 5y ago
Every single ATM has done this since Moses was kneehigh to a grasshopper.
- truemotive 5y ago
  The ATM gives you money though… 7-11 takes your money for yucky hot dogs and apparently also your face long enough to satellite it to Azure. That’s weird.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    You're the one buying the yucky hotdog, so you kind of deserve to have your face scanned and posted on a "hotdog of shame" website. I mean, if we can have a People of Walmart site, why not one for 7-11?
- Randosaurus 5y ago
  Oddly enough, I've had my fingers knuckle deep in the vagina of my girlfriend, yet for some reason it's not acceptable for me to do it to every single woman I meet. It's almost as if context makes an action acceptable in one instance and not another.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
thr0wawayf00 5y ago
This is something I've noticed recently and I'm actually glad that masks are socially acceptable in public now for this very reason.
- glitcher 5y ago
  I think facial recognition may be fairly accurate in some cases even when wearing a mask. Somewhat anecdotal, but saw this article recently: https://onezero.medium.com/you-can-fool-a-popular-facial-recognition-systems-with-sunglasses-4905ed3a59b0 https://onezero.medium.com/you-can-fool-a-popular-facial-rec...
  - notdang 5y ago
    I've read the article and it's about facial detection - it detects that there is a face on the picture. Haven't read anything about identifying the person wearing the mask.
    - JohnFen 5y ago
      Systems are getting pretty good at working around masks, but the error rate is still greater when masked than when unmasked. With most systems, if you want to maximize the error rate then you should wear a solid black mask that covers the entirety of your lower face.
      - drpgq 5y ago
        OK a mask with someone else's face
      - BoorishBears 5y ago
        Having actually worked in the space, no one cares about identifying you* They're trying to do sentiment analysis and maybe some sort of classification on age/gender *Yes, I'm sure if you Google for an anecdote of a system that did identify users you'll find one, but it really gains nothing in the space. They already have your card data and rewards programs, usually what they care about it sentiment and demographics at a specific spot in the store
JohnFen 5y ago
Yes, it's terrible. I do the only thing that's really possible for an individual to do -- I stop entering those businesses entirely.
reaperducer 5y ago
Home Depot's newer all-in-one computers at the self-checkout include an embedded camera. Makes me glad I never - ever - use self-checkout. I'm not interested in helping replace human jobs with robots just so a bean counter in a boardroom somewhere can buy a second boat. Occasionally, the self-checkout "team member" will come over to me while I'm standing in line and offer to help me use the self-checkout. I tell her, "I'd rather not help {$company} replace your job with a robot." I expect a lot of times they think I'm a kook. But every once in a while they pause and I can see the realization washing over their faces. Then I feel like I've accomplished a small thing that day.
- rytcio 5y ago
  As someone who used to have that job, the only thing I was thinking when someone said that was: well it’s going to happen eventually, and I’m glad retail is not my career
- thujlife 5y ago
  Every line of code you write is a job automated.
- jobigoud 5y ago
  Some highly repetitive jobs are better left to machines if we can. Every programmer is a farmer that has been automated out.
redwall_hp 5y ago
Walmart and Target do it too. Insert card, supply an identity to go with the frames the camera is capturing. Do that a few times and you've got a training set to identify an individual.
michaelmrose 5y ago
The cameras that are certainly watching you at checkout are the same ones you know or should know are watching you in every retail establishment in the country. The ones overhead. Retailers use a relatively small number of cameras mounted overhead in order to have broad coverage of a large area that is hard to obscure. I do not know for absolute certain, and couldn't divulge it if I did, but I am about 99% sure that the cameras mounted in the all in one systems are part of the standard equipment included with that model of computer NOT part of store surveillance coverage which is more than adequately served by existing cameras. That is to say that it would be a waste of resources to watch the other cameras watch you. The key is that they include user facing sliding camera covers designed for users to secure their privacy. This wouldn't be true if they were intended to watch you. The reason you are being watched is that people steal and people steal MORE when dealing with a machine because they feel less guilty about doing it perceptibly to a machine rather than cheating in front of an actual cashier. The Atlantic did a piece on it where it was found that around 1 in 5 people stole from SCO and about 4% of merchandise that went through SCO wasn't paid for. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/stealing-from-self-checkout/550940/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/stealin...
impressivemess 5y ago
Every single store today is doing that, and you never know when you're getting recorded for some AI training. Even after Covid is over, I'd feel comfortable continuing with the mask!
- dylan604 5y ago
  Based on the animosity of the masks, I would not be surprised where you will not be allowed to wear a mask in public just so some people can prove a point. Buisness owners are already refusing service to people wearing masks in some places (you can probably guess where if you're not already familiar).

hammock 5y ago

>I've noticed not only the local 7-11 PoS terminals now have embedded cameras, but also Home Depot's newer all-in-one computers at the self-checkout include an embedded camera. Starbucks card readers too. Pointed right up at your face. I emailed the local store manager about it, who said he'd get back to me but never did.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
What did you expect the local store manager was going to be able to say or do?
- hammock 5y ago
  Get me a policy or some sort of response in writing from their corporate overlords. Edit: just got an update. Here's what he said: >So sorry for never responding! We are not using the cameras on the POS card readers. You will see when it asks you to swipe the card that it has an eye crossed out to signify that it is not actively using the camera to look at the customer.
  - leppr 5y ago
    Sounds like someone at Starbucks saw your HN comment and ran a search for your email to ping the relevant manager. Impressive if not just a coincidence.
    - hammock 5y ago
      Ha that would be cool but actually I just followed up on my old email
reaperducer 5y ago
Starbucks card readers too. Pointed right up at your face Here's your act of civil disobedience for the day: Try to remember to bring a tiny strip of Scotch tape with you the next time you're at Starbucks. If you do remember, and if nobody's looking, put the tape over the lens. Hopefully the piece of tape is small enough to be inconspicuous, and fuzzy enough from being in your pocket that it ruins the camera's view.
- hammock 5y ago
  Yep i don't visit enough Starbucks that often anymore but that's not a terrible idea

jimmaswell 5y ago

When's the last time retail didn't have cameras, the 60s?

belter 5y ago
I hope then you dont mind I point my camera at you? :-) https://youtu.be/AQgiLK5HuiA https://youtu.be/AQgiLK5HuiA
pengaru 5y ago
There's a substantial difference between areal cameras for loss prevention and a camera literally inches from your face in terms of invasiveness and hostility.
- belter 5y ago
  You do not know what zoom level they are in the shop, most likely they have microphones on and their resolution: http://www.ltsecurityinc.com/citysurveillance http://www.ltsecurityinc.com/citysurveillance The only difference is that in one case, you are conscious on being filmed. In another case you know you are being filmed, but you prefer not to think about it...
  - pengaru 5y ago
    What's your point? The areal cameras in the shop, regardless of zoom level, are not being replaced by the cameras in your face and only in your face; it's an additive situation. The cameras in your face are only effective for capturing your face/person in detail, and they are presumably being applied to every customer wholesale, automatically during checkout, and probably associated with your purchase and payment information. You're arguing as if this isn't any different than the status quo, when it obviously is. Now we not only have the areal cameras that were presumably only zoomed-in on suspicious behaving customers for loss prevention, we also have every single in-person purchase being captured zoomed-in, regardless of behavior, with a camera lens right in your face. It's as if retail has decided to actively encourage everyone with any shred of self-respect to stop shopping retail and buy everything from Amazon. If you treat me like a presumed criminal I'm going to take my business elsewhere. What's next, metal detectors and armed guards at the doors?

alistairSH 5y ago

Except that's not what 7-11 did here. They took photos from a tablet, as select customers were taking a survey. Doing that without consent is still obnoxious, but a far cry from embedding a camera in the PoS terminal that captures everybody as they check-out. 7-11 might also do that, but it wasn't reported here.

kjaftaedi 5y ago
They did it with consent. The issue is that regardless of whether the users gave consent, their actions still ran afoul of Australian law.
- theteapot 5y ago
  There was no consent. I've done that "survey". No idea my photo was being taken or that there was even a camera.
sixothree 5y ago
Ok. Firstly, whoever did that is one sick creep. Secondly, Why!? What value is added?
truemotive 5y ago
the laziness of it all would be funny, if it didn’t indicate that people have to now be on the lookout at this casual of a level.

dylan604 5y ago

Every single ATM has done this since Moses was kneehigh to a grasshopper.

truemotive 5y ago
The ATM gives you money though… 7-11 takes your money for yucky hot dogs and apparently also your face long enough to satellite it to Azure. That’s weird.
- dylan604 5y ago
  You're the one buying the yucky hotdog, so you kind of deserve to have your face scanned and posted on a "hotdog of shame" website. I mean, if we can have a People of Walmart site, why not one for 7-11?
Randosaurus 5y ago
Oddly enough, I've had my fingers knuckle deep in the vagina of my girlfriend, yet for some reason it's not acceptable for me to do it to every single woman I meet. It's almost as if context makes an action acceptable in one instance and not another.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

thr0wawayf00 5y ago

This is something I've noticed recently and I'm actually glad that masks are socially acceptable in public now for this very reason.

glitcher 5y ago
I think facial recognition may be fairly accurate in some cases even when wearing a mask. Somewhat anecdotal, but saw this article recently: https://onezero.medium.com/you-can-fool-a-popular-facial-recognition-systems-with-sunglasses-4905ed3a59b0 https://onezero.medium.com/you-can-fool-a-popular-facial-rec...
- notdang 5y ago
  I've read the article and it's about facial detection - it detects that there is a face on the picture. Haven't read anything about identifying the person wearing the mask.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    Systems are getting pretty good at working around masks, but the error rate is still greater when masked than when unmasked. With most systems, if you want to maximize the error rate then you should wear a solid black mask that covers the entirety of your lower face.
    - drpgq 5y ago
      OK a mask with someone else's face
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      Having actually worked in the space, no one cares about identifying you* They're trying to do sentiment analysis and maybe some sort of classification on age/gender *Yes, I'm sure if you Google for an anecdote of a system that did identify users you'll find one, but it really gains nothing in the space. They already have your card data and rewards programs, usually what they care about it sentiment and demographics at a specific spot in the store

JohnFen 5y ago

Yes, it's terrible. I do the only thing that's really possible for an individual to do -- I stop entering those businesses entirely.

reaperducer 5y ago

Home Depot's newer all-in-one computers at the self-checkout include an embedded camera. Makes me glad I never - ever - use self-checkout. I'm not interested in helping replace human jobs with robots just so a bean counter in a boardroom somewhere can buy a second boat. Occasionally, the self-checkout "team member" will come over to me while I'm standing in line and offer to help me use the self-checkout. I tell her, "I'd rather not help {$company} replace your job with a robot." I expect a lot of times they think I'm a kook. But every once in a while they pause and I can see the realization washing over their faces. Then I feel like I've accomplished a small thing that day.

rytcio 5y ago
As someone who used to have that job, the only thing I was thinking when someone said that was: well it’s going to happen eventually, and I’m glad retail is not my career
thujlife 5y ago
Every line of code you write is a job automated.
jobigoud 5y ago
Some highly repetitive jobs are better left to machines if we can. Every programmer is a farmer that has been automated out.

redwall_hp 5y ago

Walmart and Target do it too. Insert card, supply an identity to go with the frames the camera is capturing. Do that a few times and you've got a training set to identify an individual.

michaelmrose 5y ago

The cameras that are certainly watching you at checkout are the same ones you know or should know are watching you in every retail establishment in the country. The ones overhead. Retailers use a relatively small number of cameras mounted overhead in order to have broad coverage of a large area that is hard to obscure. I do not know for absolute certain, and couldn't divulge it if I did, but I am about 99% sure that the cameras mounted in the all in one systems are part of the standard equipment included with that model of computer NOT part of store surveillance coverage which is more than adequately served by existing cameras. That is to say that it would be a waste of resources to watch the other cameras watch you. The key is that they include user facing sliding camera covers designed for users to secure their privacy. This wouldn't be true if they were intended to watch you. The reason you are being watched is that people steal and people steal MORE when dealing with a machine because they feel less guilty about doing it perceptibly to a machine rather than cheating in front of an actual cashier. The Atlantic did a piece on it where it was found that around 1 in 5 people stole from SCO and about 4% of merchandise that went through SCO wasn't paid for. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/stealing-from-self-checkout/550940/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/stealin...

impressivemess 5y ago

Every single store today is doing that, and you never know when you're getting recorded for some AI training. Even after Covid is over, I'd feel comfortable continuing with the mask!

dylan604 5y ago
Based on the animosity of the masks, I would not be surprised where you will not be allowed to wear a mask in public just so some people can prove a point. Buisness owners are already refusing service to people wearing masks in some places (you can probably guess where if you're not already familiar).