4 ms·

We were out of oranges. Then Mary left an orange in the kitchen. Then Bob left an orange in the kitchen. Q: How many oranges are there in the kitchen? A: 2. N

by telmo 5y ago

We were out of oranges. Then Mary left an orange in the kitchen. Then Bob left an orange in the kitchen. Q: How many oranges are there in the kitchen? A: 2. Not so fast. Addition is a mathematical model and doesn't necessarily reflect the physical universe.

satvikpendem 5y ago
You're not actually refuting the main point based on this story. Yes, mathematics is not necessarily a reflection of the physical universe. It can be, in cases like addition, but it doesn't necessarily need to be. Which was the parent's point.
- telmo 5y ago
  > mathematics is not necessarily a reflection of the physical universe Nobody knows if it is or not. It could also be that the physical universe is a reflection of mathematical truth. > It can be, in cases like addition, but it doesn't necessarily need to be. Which was the parent's point. Again, nobody knows if it what you claim is true or not. What we do know is that all scientific models are based on math, and if there is something wrong at the foundations of math, then all science is pseudoscience. Gödel's theorems are at the foundations of math. You can't just decide that you are skeptical about that part of math being applicable to physical models but addition is fine. The real problem with Gödel is that it says something that a lot of people don't like to be true.
  - satvikpendem 5y ago
    You are misunderstanding my point. Mathematics is not related to the natural world at all. 1 plus 1 will equal 2 regardless of whether there is a universe to experience it. It turns out certain types of math are useful to us, it doesn't mean that all types are. For example, infinite numbers exist, but the natural world cannot have an infinite or infinitessimal amount of things, there are upper and lower limits. Does that mean infinities don't exist? Of course not.
    - telmo 5y ago
      > Mathematics is not related to the natural world at all. This is your personal belief, unless you can justify it. I won't hold my breath, because this discussion has been raging for centuries with no end in sight. > For example, infinite numbers exist, but the natural world cannot have an infinite or infinitessimal amount of things, there are upper and lower limits. Nobody knows if the natural world is finite or not. Consider for example the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. We just don't know enough to assert such as thing.

by telmo 5y ago

satvikpendem 5y ago

You're not actually refuting the main point based on this story. Yes, mathematics is not necessarily a reflection of the physical universe. It can be, in cases like addition, but it doesn't necessarily need to be. Which was the parent's point.

telmo 5y ago
> mathematics is not necessarily a reflection of the physical universe Nobody knows if it is or not. It could also be that the physical universe is a reflection of mathematical truth. > It can be, in cases like addition, but it doesn't necessarily need to be. Which was the parent's point. Again, nobody knows if it what you claim is true or not. What we do know is that all scientific models are based on math, and if there is something wrong at the foundations of math, then all science is pseudoscience. Gödel's theorems are at the foundations of math. You can't just decide that you are skeptical about that part of math being applicable to physical models but addition is fine. The real problem with Gödel is that it says something that a lot of people don't like to be true.
- satvikpendem 5y ago
  You are misunderstanding my point. Mathematics is not related to the natural world at all. 1 plus 1 will equal 2 regardless of whether there is a universe to experience it. It turns out certain types of math are useful to us, it doesn't mean that all types are. For example, infinite numbers exist, but the natural world cannot have an infinite or infinitessimal amount of things, there are upper and lower limits. Does that mean infinities don't exist? Of course not.
  - telmo 5y ago
    > Mathematics is not related to the natural world at all. This is your personal belief, unless you can justify it. I won't hold my breath, because this discussion has been raging for centuries with no end in sight. > For example, infinite numbers exist, but the natural world cannot have an infinite or infinitessimal amount of things, there are upper and lower limits. Nobody knows if the natural world is finite or not. Consider for example the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. We just don't know enough to assert such as thing.