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This is such a tone deaf idea its kinda disappointing YC incubated it. Somebody coming from a poor (or absent) family would have a harder time breaking into the

This is such a tone deaf idea its kinda disappointing YC incubated it. Somebody coming from a poor (or absent) family would have a harder time breaking into the tech fields with this added on compared to somebody coming from a rich or even middle class family. Somebody job seeking after a 2 year long recovery from serious illness wouldn't have the connections to their old co-workers or bosses to crowd fund this, and wouldn't have the liquid cash flow to do it themselves. It unbalances access to jobs by family wealth and creates yet another:tm: skip annoying thing if you are rich enough and/or have enough friends who are rich enough. The return on investment aspect would just get gamed by companies being excessively selective on which candidates they allow to stay past 2 months. And finally it extends the worse thing that exists in our society: "It's easier to make money if you have money." This is what creates and enforces our class system, this is what makes it harder for historically disadvantaged groups to get a head, and such a product would just extend this, while benefiting the company. The anger is justified, such systems can not be allowed to exist.

dang 5y ago
AFAIK YC didn't incubate that idea - it was a later development. The reaction seems a bit overblown to me but maybe that's helpful in a way, since it might not have been as clear a signal otherwise (I mean to the startup, not YC).
- dbingham 5y ago
  Just out of curiosity, what's your relationship to YC? I (and I'm guessing others here) only know you as HN's moderator.
  - peterthehacker 5y ago
    According to this article https://blog.ycombinator.com/meet-the-people-taking-over-hacker-news/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/meet-the-people-taking-over-hac... dang has worked for YC full time since 2014, so I’d assume that dang is “in the know.” But sometimes I wonder if dang is more than one person.
    - pvg 5y ago
      I wonder if dang is more than one person. It's a redundant array of inexpensive dangs.
      - cutemonster 5y ago
        Expensive Dangs :-)
      - peterthehacker 5y ago
        A “dang-chain”
    - dang 5y ago
      I'm not so close to the investment side of YC (i.e. the real business) because HN takes up all my attention. But I'm usually able to find out specific things that HN wants to know.
  - dang 5y ago
    YC owns and funds HN (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html) and I work for YC.
    - dbingham 5y ago
      I see, you lead HN and HN is an independent piece of YC. You're not involved in the incubator side of YC? Makes sense. Thanks for explaining, and thanks for working so hard to shepherd HN :)
Redoubts 5y ago
> The return on investment aspect would just get gamed by companies being excessively selective on which candidates they allow to stay past 2 months. Maybe. But hiring is hard and I doubt many decent companies would throw away a good SWE for less than $100k
austincheney 5y ago
> The anger is justified, such systems can not be allowed to exist. Comments like this exemplify how entitled and outside reality the tech industry exists. Consider how much it costs to break into the medical or legal fields. It costs thousands of dollars to become a truck driver, though this is often fronted by a prospective employer. Same with becoming a police officer. Consider instead screen acting where potential employment is often a pipe dream and costs thousands of dollars for a headshot and agent. Seriously, what other professional career doesn't require some financial investment and personal connections to break in?
- satellites 5y ago
  You're saying that as if it means tech should have a large, expensive barrier to entry. That financial barrier is a problem in those other fields too, and it does disproportionately affect people from disadvantaged backgrounds in those fields. Your argument is basically "well it's tough for the poors to become a doctor, so it would be okay if it's tough for them to become a software engineer too!" EDIT: also, the costs incurred by becoming a doctor or nurse are debts to educational institutions and licensing boards which, ostensibly, are doing good by educating and regulating. This is a proposal for a financial barrier imposed by your employer, and paid for by your social or professional networks. It's not the same.
  - austincheney 5y ago
    That is an assumption that is not stated or implied. But, if you want to go down that tangent the tech industry would benefit from a set of standard minimum qualifications. Such would reduce employer liability and result in higher quality products pushed to market in shorter time at lower expense. That last sentence is technobabble really meaning employers could more easily discern candidate maturity and thus require a lower headcount for an equivalent task. The great discriminator there isn’t financial but the time and cognition required.
    - satellites 5y ago
      I've had this argument on HN before and I'm generally against that - I don't think the ability to pass a standardized licensing test is any more of a marker of a good engineer than an interview is. If anything, it's less effective than a good interview. I've never taken a test in all my education that I felt was truly and fairly assessing my skills as a software engineer. And I went to a well-ranked CS program. Long-term projects, and the ability to talk in depth about the technical aspects of those projects, is the best marker of ability to me. But, if a testing system were proposed that could demonstrably add value to the industry and wouldn't select for privilege, then I'd be for it. I'm just very skeptical, and I think lots of licensing programs are onerous and only exist to enrich the licensing organization without adding real value to society.
david38 5y ago
How is this any worse than the current situation? Just because someone in a wheelchair can’t drive a Ferrari doesn’t mean a Ferrari isn’t fun for huge base. The expression “don’t let great be the enemy of good” comes to mind. Whether this is good or not is besides the point, that it’s not good for everyone and therefore not allowed to exist is the problem.
- proofbygazing 5y ago
  Agreed, the reaction to this idea blew me away. The problem of hiring is accurately signaling fitness for a job. Job hunters should have a variety of ways to do this - interviewing, credible vouches (like this company), and hopefully more in the future. Founder should've stuck to his guns imo

dang 5y ago

AFAIK YC didn't incubate that idea - it was a later development. The reaction seems a bit overblown to me but maybe that's helpful in a way, since it might not have been as clear a signal otherwise (I mean to the startup, not YC).

dbingham 5y ago
Just out of curiosity, what's your relationship to YC? I (and I'm guessing others here) only know you as HN's moderator.
- peterthehacker 5y ago
  According to this article https://blog.ycombinator.com/meet-the-people-taking-over-hacker-news/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/meet-the-people-taking-over-hac... dang has worked for YC full time since 2014, so I’d assume that dang is “in the know.” But sometimes I wonder if dang is more than one person.
  - pvg 5y ago
    I wonder if dang is more than one person. It's a redundant array of inexpensive dangs.
    - cutemonster 5y ago
      Expensive Dangs :-)
    - peterthehacker 5y ago
      A “dang-chain”
  - dang 5y ago
    I'm not so close to the investment side of YC (i.e. the real business) because HN takes up all my attention. But I'm usually able to find out specific things that HN wants to know.
- dang 5y ago
  YC owns and funds HN (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html) and I work for YC.
  - dbingham 5y ago
    I see, you lead HN and HN is an independent piece of YC. You're not involved in the incubator side of YC? Makes sense. Thanks for explaining, and thanks for working so hard to shepherd HN :)

Redoubts 5y ago

> The return on investment aspect would just get gamed by companies being excessively selective on which candidates they allow to stay past 2 months. Maybe. But hiring is hard and I doubt many decent companies would throw away a good SWE for less than $100k

austincheney 5y ago

> The anger is justified, such systems can not be allowed to exist. Comments like this exemplify how entitled and outside reality the tech industry exists. Consider how much it costs to break into the medical or legal fields. It costs thousands of dollars to become a truck driver, though this is often fronted by a prospective employer. Same with becoming a police officer. Consider instead screen acting where potential employment is often a pipe dream and costs thousands of dollars for a headshot and agent. Seriously, what other professional career doesn't require some financial investment and personal connections to break in?

satellites 5y ago
You're saying that as if it means tech should have a large, expensive barrier to entry. That financial barrier is a problem in those other fields too, and it does disproportionately affect people from disadvantaged backgrounds in those fields. Your argument is basically "well it's tough for the poors to become a doctor, so it would be okay if it's tough for them to become a software engineer too!" EDIT: also, the costs incurred by becoming a doctor or nurse are debts to educational institutions and licensing boards which, ostensibly, are doing good by educating and regulating. This is a proposal for a financial barrier imposed by your employer, and paid for by your social or professional networks. It's not the same.
- austincheney 5y ago
  That is an assumption that is not stated or implied. But, if you want to go down that tangent the tech industry would benefit from a set of standard minimum qualifications. Such would reduce employer liability and result in higher quality products pushed to market in shorter time at lower expense. That last sentence is technobabble really meaning employers could more easily discern candidate maturity and thus require a lower headcount for an equivalent task. The great discriminator there isn’t financial but the time and cognition required.
  - satellites 5y ago
    I've had this argument on HN before and I'm generally against that - I don't think the ability to pass a standardized licensing test is any more of a marker of a good engineer than an interview is. If anything, it's less effective than a good interview. I've never taken a test in all my education that I felt was truly and fairly assessing my skills as a software engineer. And I went to a well-ranked CS program. Long-term projects, and the ability to talk in depth about the technical aspects of those projects, is the best marker of ability to me. But, if a testing system were proposed that could demonstrably add value to the industry and wouldn't select for privilege, then I'd be for it. I'm just very skeptical, and I think lots of licensing programs are onerous and only exist to enrich the licensing organization without adding real value to society.

david38 5y ago

How is this any worse than the current situation? Just because someone in a wheelchair can’t drive a Ferrari doesn’t mean a Ferrari isn’t fun for huge base. The expression “don’t let great be the enemy of good” comes to mind. Whether this is good or not is besides the point, that it’s not good for everyone and therefore not allowed to exist is the problem.

proofbygazing 5y ago
Agreed, the reaction to this idea blew me away. The problem of hiring is accurately signaling fitness for a job. Job hunters should have a variety of ways to do this - interviewing, credible vouches (like this company), and hopefully more in the future. Founder should've stuck to his guns imo