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I wonder if more bioavailable B vitamins from a meat-heavy diet has anything to do with it. Vegetarian diets, as I understand the common saying, need to active

I wonder if more bioavailable B vitamins from a meat-heavy diet has anything to do with it. Vegetarian diets, as I understand the common saying, need to actively contain or be supplemented with B vitamin sources. If you're veg but live on nutrient-poor junk food, I could see nutritional deficiencies entering the mix. I think it's relatively uncontroversial that malnutrition has mental health side effects.

cyounkins 5y ago
Of the B vitamins, vegans (and to a lesser extent, vegetarians) only need to supplement B12. B12 is produced by bacteria but can be obtained in meat and animal products. Historically we got plenty from unsterilized water.
- chmod600 5y ago
  Do you have a citation about the unsterilized water? I would guess that lots of things had bacteria, but not in large enough quantities to supply enough B12. It would need to be accumulated somehow. Cows have special hardware in their digestive tract to cultivate bacteria that can supply the B12. Why would that exist if cows could just get it from unsterilized water?
  - cyounkins 5y ago
    I got this from Dr. Greger at NutritionFacts.org, "We presumably used to get B12 drinking out of a mountain stream or well water, based on studies showing vegetarians in developing countries who drink purified water appear to be at higher risk." [1]. He references a paper [2] which states "Logistic regression analysis showed independent association between use of RO water and Vitamin B12 deficiency" in Western India. That evidence isn't as iron-clad as I would like, and I haven't been able to find any study directly measuring B12 in city/well/stream water. I don't know much about cow digestive systems, but I know evolution has created many weird solutions across different animals. The cow GI system is very different from humans (4 large stomach parts, sometimes referred to as separate stomachs) which is different from cats (obligate carnivores). [1] https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-symptoms-of-vitamin-B12-deficiency/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-symptoms-of-vitamin-B12... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27437269 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27437269
    - chmod600 5y ago
      Interesting. Might be a case of "all of the above", where the people who get into real trouble do so because they defeat all the sources.
TheDong 5y ago
> I think it's relatively uncontroversial that malnutrition has mental health side effects. Perhaps, but I think the next step, showing that vegetarian diets / vegan diets are more likely to have poor nutrition, is harder. There's a portion of meat-eaters who live on terrible diets and don't get enough nutrition due to their primary source of vegetables being the potatoes in fries. Is that portion more or less than the portion of vegans/vegetarians that have poor nutrition? Studies about diets and longevity usually show vegans and vegetarians living mildly longer than typical meat eaters, which to me seems like at least a small data-point that nutritional deficiencies aren't more pronounced in the former group.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
BrianHenryIE 5y ago
B12 is fun. Livestock is supplemented with B12. Meat-based diets need their meat to be actively supplemented with B vitamin sources. If you're a carnist but live on nutrient-poor junk food, I could see nutritional deficiencies entering the mix. I think it's relatively uncontroversial that malnutrition has mental health side effects.
- rank0 5y ago
  Animals not in factory farms don’t need this supplementation.
  - chmod600 5y ago
    I see that your comment is downvoted a shade, but I'd like to know whether it is true or false. Do you (or anyone else) have a citation?
    - rank0 5y ago
      You could do a quick search but I think common sense should suffice here. How did all the (meat eating) humans survive before b12 supplements were around? Animals surely do not receive supplements in the wild. In the factories is where they are deprived of their natural diet that would provide the b12.
      - chmod600 5y ago
        I agree, but sometimes I hear other theories. One of the other comments said something about unsanitized water providing b12. In the past I've heard that just eating dirty fruit and vegetables had enough b12.
        rank0 5y ago
        I suppose those theories are possible and I should do some research. The "normal" way to receive B12 was from livestock eating grass/vegetation that were covered in dirt. In that case, humans would indeed meet their B12 requirements from eating those livestock.

cyounkins 5y ago

Of the B vitamins, vegans (and to a lesser extent, vegetarians) only need to supplement B12. B12 is produced by bacteria but can be obtained in meat and animal products. Historically we got plenty from unsterilized water.

chmod600 5y ago
Do you have a citation about the unsterilized water? I would guess that lots of things had bacteria, but not in large enough quantities to supply enough B12. It would need to be accumulated somehow. Cows have special hardware in their digestive tract to cultivate bacteria that can supply the B12. Why would that exist if cows could just get it from unsterilized water?
- cyounkins 5y ago
  I got this from Dr. Greger at NutritionFacts.org, "We presumably used to get B12 drinking out of a mountain stream or well water, based on studies showing vegetarians in developing countries who drink purified water appear to be at higher risk." [1]. He references a paper [2] which states "Logistic regression analysis showed independent association between use of RO water and Vitamin B12 deficiency" in Western India. That evidence isn't as iron-clad as I would like, and I haven't been able to find any study directly measuring B12 in city/well/stream water. I don't know much about cow digestive systems, but I know evolution has created many weird solutions across different animals. The cow GI system is very different from humans (4 large stomach parts, sometimes referred to as separate stomachs) which is different from cats (obligate carnivores). [1] https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-symptoms-of-vitamin-B12-deficiency/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-symptoms-of-vitamin-B12... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27437269 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27437269
  - chmod600 5y ago
    Interesting. Might be a case of "all of the above", where the people who get into real trouble do so because they defeat all the sources.

TheDong 5y ago

> I think it's relatively uncontroversial that malnutrition has mental health side effects. Perhaps, but I think the next step, showing that vegetarian diets / vegan diets are more likely to have poor nutrition, is harder. There's a portion of meat-eaters who live on terrible diets and don't get enough nutrition due to their primary source of vegetables being the potatoes in fries. Is that portion more or less than the portion of vegans/vegetarians that have poor nutrition? Studies about diets and longevity usually show vegans and vegetarians living mildly longer than typical meat eaters, which to me seems like at least a small data-point that nutritional deficiencies aren't more pronounced in the former group.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

BrianHenryIE 5y ago

B12 is fun. Livestock is supplemented with B12. Meat-based diets need their meat to be actively supplemented with B vitamin sources. If you're a carnist but live on nutrient-poor junk food, I could see nutritional deficiencies entering the mix. I think it's relatively uncontroversial that malnutrition has mental health side effects.

rank0 5y ago
Animals not in factory farms don’t need this supplementation.
- chmod600 5y ago
  I see that your comment is downvoted a shade, but I'd like to know whether it is true or false. Do you (or anyone else) have a citation?
  - rank0 5y ago
    You could do a quick search but I think common sense should suffice here. How did all the (meat eating) humans survive before b12 supplements were around? Animals surely do not receive supplements in the wild. In the factories is where they are deprived of their natural diet that would provide the b12.
    - chmod600 5y ago
      I agree, but sometimes I hear other theories. One of the other comments said something about unsanitized water providing b12. In the past I've heard that just eating dirty fruit and vegetables had enough b12.
      - rank0 5y ago
        I suppose those theories are possible and I should do some research. The "normal" way to receive B12 was from livestock eating grass/vegetation that were covered in dirt. In that case, humans would indeed meet their B12 requirements from eating those livestock.