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The example with facebook is quite different from Gov. Your interaction with facebook is 100% voluntarily, you don't like facebook then you can say bye! With th

The example with facebook is quite different from Gov. Your interaction with facebook is 100% voluntarily, you don't like facebook then you can say bye! With the government you have no room for flexibility.

ipaddr 5y ago
You have this backwards. Facebook wants to sell in the US market. There are rules to follow if facebook doesn't want to join this market they are free to choose not to. Same as you are not forced to use facebook.
- akerl_ 5y ago
  Facebook is following the rules that exist. The discussion in this thread is whether or not it’s a good idea to add a rule that says whether a keyboard can require a cloud service. Now I think that keyboards that require cloud service are a stupid product, but if somebody wants to make one, I don’t think it’s the government’s job to ban them from making the attempt.
  - malermeister 5y ago
    This approach is naive in that it completely ignores the outsized influence a corporation like Facebook has on the market. This isn't you making a free decision between competitors, like in an idealized econ 101 example. Facebook has already used its money to consolidate its grasp on the standalone VR market - can you think of a viable competitor to an Oculus Quest? Should people just have to put up with privacy abuses or be excluded from VR altogether? When the market fails, it's time for the government to step in.
    - Tostino 5y ago
      I've essentially written off getting VR at this point due to Facebook being the big game in town. Nothing else really looks enticing and I will not give Facebook a cent of my money.
malermeister 5y ago
> Your interaction with facebook is 100% voluntarily It is not. They used their money and power to hire some of the brightest minds in VR to design hardware and to create exclusivity deals with some of the best developers. I either take facebook's offering or I don't have access to those things at all. > With the government you have no room for flexibility. You do. You can "say bye!" as you phrased it and move to another place with a another government. I've done it several times now.
- akerl_ 5y ago
  Yes. If you choose not to take Facebook’s offering, you don’t get access to the things they and others build for their product. Do we want to make exclusivity deals between businesses illegal?
  - malermeister 5y ago
    I don't think we need to do that, but we do need to make sure corporations don't use the power they gain through those deals to make you endure the privacy abuses that come with a cloud requirement.
    - josephg 5y ago
      Its not just privacy. Corporate exclusivity power also hurts competition, which in the long run is worse for everyone. (Well, except maybe the monopolist). For example, when AT&T owned all the telecoms equipment in the US, other companies couldn't make new products using their system (like answering machines or modems). Having anyone able to design, connect, use and sell new devices on top of their infrastructure is an incredibly important feature. And facebook knows that. They launched facebook on the internet (which is an open platform). Facebook couldn't have been created in the first place if not for that. Facebook owes its existence to open platforms. Lets not allow the train of innovation to stop here.
  - girvo 5y ago
    > Do we want to make exclusivity deals between businesses illegal? In certain circumstances, we already do (kind of): FRAND licensing for technical standards are a good example.
AlexandrB 5y ago
Every time this comes up, I have to point out that Facebook will collect information about you and build a "shadow profile" even if you never visit their site once. There's no foolproof way I know of to get them to stop either. Interaction with Facebook is voluntarily in the theoretical sense that you could try to avoid every website with a Facebook tracker or hope your ad-blocker is good enough to stop them. But Facebook won't respect signals (such as DNT) that would indicate that you don't want to interact with them.
- hackerfromthefu 5y ago
  And tag you with facial recognition in photos other people upload
hackerfromthefu 5y ago
This is just false - a number of universities and colleges use mandatory facebook groups for students notifications for example. The network effects of large internet companies have made avoiding them impractical. Taking your argument to the extreme if you don't like coal perhaps you should avoid buying electricity. Good luck with that in the real world of today

ipaddr 5y ago

You have this backwards. Facebook wants to sell in the US market. There are rules to follow if facebook doesn't want to join this market they are free to choose not to. Same as you are not forced to use facebook.

akerl_ 5y ago
Facebook is following the rules that exist. The discussion in this thread is whether or not it’s a good idea to add a rule that says whether a keyboard can require a cloud service. Now I think that keyboards that require cloud service are a stupid product, but if somebody wants to make one, I don’t think it’s the government’s job to ban them from making the attempt.
- malermeister 5y ago
  This approach is naive in that it completely ignores the outsized influence a corporation like Facebook has on the market. This isn't you making a free decision between competitors, like in an idealized econ 101 example. Facebook has already used its money to consolidate its grasp on the standalone VR market - can you think of a viable competitor to an Oculus Quest? Should people just have to put up with privacy abuses or be excluded from VR altogether? When the market fails, it's time for the government to step in.
  - Tostino 5y ago
    I've essentially written off getting VR at this point due to Facebook being the big game in town. Nothing else really looks enticing and I will not give Facebook a cent of my money.

malermeister 5y ago

> Your interaction with facebook is 100% voluntarily It is not. They used their money and power to hire some of the brightest minds in VR to design hardware and to create exclusivity deals with some of the best developers. I either take facebook's offering or I don't have access to those things at all. > With the government you have no room for flexibility. You do. You can "say bye!" as you phrased it and move to another place with a another government. I've done it several times now.

akerl_ 5y ago
Yes. If you choose not to take Facebook’s offering, you don’t get access to the things they and others build for their product. Do we want to make exclusivity deals between businesses illegal?
- malermeister 5y ago
  I don't think we need to do that, but we do need to make sure corporations don't use the power they gain through those deals to make you endure the privacy abuses that come with a cloud requirement.
  - josephg 5y ago
    Its not just privacy. Corporate exclusivity power also hurts competition, which in the long run is worse for everyone. (Well, except maybe the monopolist). For example, when AT&T owned all the telecoms equipment in the US, other companies couldn't make new products using their system (like answering machines or modems). Having anyone able to design, connect, use and sell new devices on top of their infrastructure is an incredibly important feature. And facebook knows that. They launched facebook on the internet (which is an open platform). Facebook couldn't have been created in the first place if not for that. Facebook owes its existence to open platforms. Lets not allow the train of innovation to stop here.
- girvo 5y ago
  > Do we want to make exclusivity deals between businesses illegal? In certain circumstances, we already do (kind of): FRAND licensing for technical standards are a good example.

AlexandrB 5y ago

Every time this comes up, I have to point out that Facebook will collect information about you and build a "shadow profile" even if you never visit their site once. There's no foolproof way I know of to get them to stop either. Interaction with Facebook is voluntarily in the theoretical sense that you could try to avoid every website with a Facebook tracker or hope your ad-blocker is good enough to stop them. But Facebook won't respect signals (such as DNT) that would indicate that you don't want to interact with them.

hackerfromthefu 5y ago
And tag you with facial recognition in photos other people upload

hackerfromthefu 5y ago

This is just false - a number of universities and colleges use mandatory facebook groups for students notifications for example. The network effects of large internet companies have made avoiding them impractical. Taking your argument to the extreme if you don't like coal perhaps you should avoid buying electricity. Good luck with that in the real world of today