4 ms·

Well let's hope that some C-Suite got punished.

quasse 5y ago
Unfortunately it looks like this is really a fall guy with no mention of where the instruction to hide this information came from. On the other hand, according to his Linkedin Mark Forkner worked for the FAA before moving to Boeing to become the chief technical pilot, so he should have been well aware of the stakes when he hid information.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  It's likely he thought FAA self certification [1] would allow Boeing to skate by, which is probably accurate if the planes hadn't fallen out of the sky. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/how-the-faa-allows-jetmakers-to-self-certify-that-planes-meet-us-safety-requirements/2019/03/15/96d24d4a-46e6-11e9-90f0-0ccfeec87a61_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/how-the-faa-al...
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    Which is generally why in other areas a corporation may have its own verification/validation processes, but bring in a 3rd party to audit them. It's a common accounting process. Although, as we saw with Arthur Anderson, that 3rd party isn't always so neutral. And, by virtue of getting paid by the company, may deliver the results wanted instead of the results that are accurate.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Another way to look at it is he would be knowledgable on how to hide information from the FAA
- weaksauce 5y ago
  This is the C suite guy getting the charges levied on him with pretty solid evidence against him. if he wants to avoid long term jail they will use him to cut a deal to get more information to find out if any of the few people that are above him ordered him to do it.
  - rurounijones 5y ago
    I think this comment points out that this may not be accurate https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28873133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28873133
smackeyacky 5y ago
The C-suite will be punished with a bonus for dodging responsibility. edit: if that actually happens, Boeing is finished. They will be doomed to repeating the mistake of the 737 Max.
- AuthorizedCust 5y ago
  > They will be doomed to repeating the mistake of the 737 Max. This article is about the 737 Max.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Yes? They’re saying that if there aren’t significant consequences for the C suite in this case, they’ll pick cost over safety again in the future.
    - smackeyacky 5y ago
      I think it's worse than picking cost over safety. What Boeing did was knowingly push a bad position. They knew they were in the hole with the pilot training for the Max, they knew they had screwed up. Regardless of that, they kept pushing the line that it wasn't their fault right up until that became untenable. The issue here is a corporate culture that ignored red flags, that played games with the regulator and decided that they would gamble peoples lives and the entire company reputation (including all their employees) on a cost cutting, corrupt means of beating Airbus. The entire c-suite should be headed for orange jumpsuit land.
tiahura 5y ago
Why? He was lying to them as well.
- throwanem 5y ago
  > Steve Jobs told employees a short story when they were promoted to vice president at Apple. Jobs would tell the VP that if the garbage in his office was not being emptied, Jobs would naturally demand an explanation from the janitor. "Well, the lock on the door was changed,' the janitor could reasonably respond. "And I couldn't get a key." > The janitor's response is reasonable. It's an understandable excuse. The janitor can't do his job without a key. As a janitor, he's allowed to have excuses. > "When you're the janitor, reasons matter," Jobs told his newly-minted VPs. "Somewhere between the janitor and the CEO, reasons stop mattering." > "In other words," (Jobs continued,) "when the employee becomes a vice president, he or she must vacate all excuses for failure. A vice president is responsible for any mistakes that happen, and it doesn't matter what you say."
  - markus_zhang 5y ago
    This makes a lot of sense. When you are high enough you are so far away from the trenches that the only responsibilities are: 1) Making decisions and 2) Taking blames for whatever reason. That's why you get the big bucks. Extrapolated from that, I kinda understand why many senior employees do NOT want to climb the pole but instead staying closer to the trenches.
  - mdoms 5y ago
    I guess this was before the big brain genius man treated his fatal cancer with magic beans.
    - vkou 5y ago
      This story is almost certainly apocryphal, but is a good way to assign responsibility at senior levels.
  - dls2016 5y ago
    Sounds like the mafia.
trhway 5y ago
to calibrate our hopes we can just look at VW dieselgate
- satellite2 5y ago
  The CEO at the time, Martin Winterkor, and at least six other executives were indicted. Some of the executives were jailed but still not the CEO (I can find mentions of prosecutors discussing the sentence but no mention of him actually starting serving it). But I have muche less hope in the capacity of the US to seriously incriminate its poster child.
  - pkaye 5y ago
    The CEO Martin Winterkorn is German and Germany doesn't extradite their citizens outside the EU so nothing will happen there. According to Wikipedia, he was also charged in Germany but looks like he will walk free from most charges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Winterkorn#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Winterkorn#United_State...
steveBK123 5y ago
Spider Network by David Enrich is a good book to dispel you of such quaint notions.
zardo 5y ago
Looks like they already found the designated felon

Unfortunately it looks like this is really a fall guy with no mention of where the instruction to hide this information came from. On the other hand, according to his Linkedin Mark Forkner worked for the FAA before moving to Boeing to become the chief technical pilot, so he should have been well aware of the stakes when he hid information.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
It's likely he thought FAA self certification [1] would allow Boeing to skate by, which is probably accurate if the planes hadn't fallen out of the sky. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/how-the-faa-allows-jetmakers-to-self-certify-that-planes-meet-us-safety-requirements/2019/03/15/96d24d4a-46e6-11e9-90f0-0ccfeec87a61_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/how-the-faa-al...
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Which is generally why in other areas a corporation may have its own verification/validation processes, but bring in a 3rd party to audit them. It's a common accounting process. Although, as we saw with Arthur Anderson, that 3rd party isn't always so neutral. And, by virtue of getting paid by the company, may deliver the results wanted instead of the results that are accurate.
dylan604 5y ago
Another way to look at it is he would be knowledgable on how to hide information from the FAA
weaksauce 5y ago
This is the C suite guy getting the charges levied on him with pretty solid evidence against him. if he wants to avoid long term jail they will use him to cut a deal to get more information to find out if any of the few people that are above him ordered him to do it.
- rurounijones 5y ago
  I think this comment points out that this may not be accurate https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28873133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28873133

smackeyacky 5y ago

The C-suite will be punished with a bonus for dodging responsibility. edit: if that actually happens, Boeing is finished. They will be doomed to repeating the mistake of the 737 Max.

AuthorizedCust 5y ago
> They will be doomed to repeating the mistake of the 737 Max. This article is about the 737 Max.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Yes? They’re saying that if there aren’t significant consequences for the C suite in this case, they’ll pick cost over safety again in the future.
  - smackeyacky 5y ago
    I think it's worse than picking cost over safety. What Boeing did was knowingly push a bad position. They knew they were in the hole with the pilot training for the Max, they knew they had screwed up. Regardless of that, they kept pushing the line that it wasn't their fault right up until that became untenable. The issue here is a corporate culture that ignored red flags, that played games with the regulator and decided that they would gamble peoples lives and the entire company reputation (including all their employees) on a cost cutting, corrupt means of beating Airbus. The entire c-suite should be headed for orange jumpsuit land.

tiahura 5y ago

Why? He was lying to them as well.

throwanem 5y ago
> Steve Jobs told employees a short story when they were promoted to vice president at Apple. Jobs would tell the VP that if the garbage in his office was not being emptied, Jobs would naturally demand an explanation from the janitor. "Well, the lock on the door was changed,' the janitor could reasonably respond. "And I couldn't get a key." > The janitor's response is reasonable. It's an understandable excuse. The janitor can't do his job without a key. As a janitor, he's allowed to have excuses. > "When you're the janitor, reasons matter," Jobs told his newly-minted VPs. "Somewhere between the janitor and the CEO, reasons stop mattering." > "In other words," (Jobs continued,) "when the employee becomes a vice president, he or she must vacate all excuses for failure. A vice president is responsible for any mistakes that happen, and it doesn't matter what you say."
- markus_zhang 5y ago
  This makes a lot of sense. When you are high enough you are so far away from the trenches that the only responsibilities are: 1) Making decisions and 2) Taking blames for whatever reason. That's why you get the big bucks. Extrapolated from that, I kinda understand why many senior employees do NOT want to climb the pole but instead staying closer to the trenches.
- mdoms 5y ago
  I guess this was before the big brain genius man treated his fatal cancer with magic beans.
  - vkou 5y ago
    This story is almost certainly apocryphal, but is a good way to assign responsibility at senior levels.
- dls2016 5y ago
  Sounds like the mafia.

trhway 5y ago

to calibrate our hopes we can just look at VW dieselgate

satellite2 5y ago
The CEO at the time, Martin Winterkor, and at least six other executives were indicted. Some of the executives were jailed but still not the CEO (I can find mentions of prosecutors discussing the sentence but no mention of him actually starting serving it). But I have muche less hope in the capacity of the US to seriously incriminate its poster child.
- pkaye 5y ago
  The CEO Martin Winterkorn is German and Germany doesn't extradite their citizens outside the EU so nothing will happen there. According to Wikipedia, he was also charged in Germany but looks like he will walk free from most charges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Winterkorn#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Winterkorn#United_State...

steveBK123 5y ago

Spider Network by David Enrich is a good book to dispel you of such quaint notions.

zardo 5y ago

Looks like they already found the designated felon