4 ms·

Well, in the rest of the industrialized world the thought of voting with your gas bill as "ID" is laughable.

tigershark 5y ago
In U.K. there is no need of any whatsoever id to vote. I would agree that requiring a gas bill to vote is laughable but probably for reasons at the complete antipodes than yours.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  Oh, well, I assume too many things I guess.
vinay427 5y ago
What point are you getting at, here? The generalization in your comment isn’t true, for starters [1, 2], and it doesn’t address the premise of the parent comment that there may not be sufficient fraud to warrant stronger ID requirements. From what I can tell (correct me if I’m wrong), that assumption of insecure elections is what underlies the laughability of the situation. [1] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9187/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... [2] https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/04/millions-in-uk-face-disenfranchisement-under-voter-id-plans https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/04/millions-in...
- rightbyte 5y ago
  The point I am trying to make is that being forced to have IDs when voting is common. I didn't know about the UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws Reading that quite short list, it seems like Australia, Canada, UK and the US are the only ones which do not require IDs. I wonder if it has something to do with old British legal system, that they kind off share.
  - Talanes 5y ago
    I didn't go through the entire list, but it does seem like a lot of those countries either use a standard national ID, or have a nationally issued voter ID. Unfortunately, federally assigned IDs are a weirdly hot-button issue in America. Whether it's the libertarian insistence that national ID leads to authoritarianism[1], or the evangelical strain that sees it as a potential Mark of the Beast[2]. [1] https://www.cato.org/commentary/you-value-privacy-resist-any-form-national-id-cards# https://www.cato.org/commentary/you-value-privacy-resist-any... [2] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-national-biometric-id_b_542821 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-national-biometric-id_b_5...
    - vinay427 5y ago
      National ID is certainly not a requirement for voter ID, and there’s no reason I can find so far that state/local ID couldn’t be mandated instead. While you’re correct that most countries that require voter ID have a national ID card, I would guess that’s more of a correlation due to a latent variable that underlies both of these: possibly some sort of trust in a national authority (relative to local authorities), ease and necessity of international travel within Europe requiring convenient proof of citizenship, etc.
      - Talanes 5y ago
        State IDs being used for voting means that who gets to vote is controlled by individual States ID laws, and we don't generally trust other States to get it right.
  - djsbs 5y ago
    Wait a second. Canada does require an ID. From someone. If the would be voter doesn't have ID, then someone who knows them has to make a sworn affidavit that the voter is who they claim to be. Thats not the same thing as we have in the US
    - vinay427 5y ago
      This distinction isn't quite so clear-cut. At least in Ontario, any form of documentation listing the voter's name is sufficient [1], which they explicitly state can include a credit/debit card. The more stringent voter ID laws in some parts of the US (e.g. Texas) tend to concern government-issued photo IDs [2]. EDIT: Note, in particular, that a utility bill (e.g. a gas bill as mentioned in an ancestor comment) is sufficient in Ontario. For the purposes of this comment thread, this would fall into the (allegedly) laughable situation of lacking voter ID. [1] https://www.elections.on.ca/en/voting-in-ontario/id-requirements-for-voting.html#accordionIDvote https://www.elections.on.ca/en/voting-in-ontario/id-requirem... [2] https://www.votetexas.gov/mobile/id-faqs.htm https://www.votetexas.gov/mobile/id-faqs.htm
vkou 5y ago
Careful about drawing generalizations about voting in the developed world. In Canada, my grandmother didn't need any "ID" to vote, period. All she needed was for me, who had acceptable ID to vouch that she was an eligible voter, voting in a riding that she was eligible to vote in. Somehow, the country has not yet devolved into an orgy of lawlessness.
- djsbs 5y ago
  You made a solemn oath under penalty of law. Thats not what they have in the US. I can literally come up with a common name, say Ben Levi, and vote on Ben’s behalf. If Ben decides to show up, he’s in trouble, not me. In Canada you are typically required ID. If you lied about your grandma and the real Ms. vkou shows up to vote, she’ll have ID proving who she is, and Elections Canada has your name written down to throw you in jail for lying under oath.

In U.K. there is no need of any whatsoever id to vote. I would agree that requiring a gas bill to vote is laughable but probably for reasons at the complete antipodes than yours.

rightbyte 5y ago
Oh, well, I assume too many things I guess.

vinay427 5y ago

What point are you getting at, here? The generalization in your comment isn’t true, for starters [1, 2], and it doesn’t address the premise of the parent comment that there may not be sufficient fraud to warrant stronger ID requirements. From what I can tell (correct me if I’m wrong), that assumption of insecure elections is what underlies the laughability of the situation. [1] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9187/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... [2] https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/04/millions-in-uk-face-disenfranchisement-under-voter-id-plans https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/04/millions-in...

rightbyte 5y ago
The point I am trying to make is that being forced to have IDs when voting is common. I didn't know about the UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws Reading that quite short list, it seems like Australia, Canada, UK and the US are the only ones which do not require IDs. I wonder if it has something to do with old British legal system, that they kind off share.
- Talanes 5y ago
  I didn't go through the entire list, but it does seem like a lot of those countries either use a standard national ID, or have a nationally issued voter ID. Unfortunately, federally assigned IDs are a weirdly hot-button issue in America. Whether it's the libertarian insistence that national ID leads to authoritarianism[1], or the evangelical strain that sees it as a potential Mark of the Beast[2]. [1] https://www.cato.org/commentary/you-value-privacy-resist-any-form-national-id-cards# https://www.cato.org/commentary/you-value-privacy-resist-any... [2] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-national-biometric-id_b_542821 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-national-biometric-id_b_5...
  - vinay427 5y ago
    National ID is certainly not a requirement for voter ID, and there’s no reason I can find so far that state/local ID couldn’t be mandated instead. While you’re correct that most countries that require voter ID have a national ID card, I would guess that’s more of a correlation due to a latent variable that underlies both of these: possibly some sort of trust in a national authority (relative to local authorities), ease and necessity of international travel within Europe requiring convenient proof of citizenship, etc.
    - Talanes 5y ago
      State IDs being used for voting means that who gets to vote is controlled by individual States ID laws, and we don't generally trust other States to get it right.
- djsbs 5y ago
  Wait a second. Canada does require an ID. From someone. If the would be voter doesn't have ID, then someone who knows them has to make a sworn affidavit that the voter is who they claim to be. Thats not the same thing as we have in the US
  - vinay427 5y ago
    This distinction isn't quite so clear-cut. At least in Ontario, any form of documentation listing the voter's name is sufficient [1], which they explicitly state can include a credit/debit card. The more stringent voter ID laws in some parts of the US (e.g. Texas) tend to concern government-issued photo IDs [2]. EDIT: Note, in particular, that a utility bill (e.g. a gas bill as mentioned in an ancestor comment) is sufficient in Ontario. For the purposes of this comment thread, this would fall into the (allegedly) laughable situation of lacking voter ID. [1] https://www.elections.on.ca/en/voting-in-ontario/id-requirements-for-voting.html#accordionIDvote https://www.elections.on.ca/en/voting-in-ontario/id-requirem... [2] https://www.votetexas.gov/mobile/id-faqs.htm https://www.votetexas.gov/mobile/id-faqs.htm

vkou 5y ago

Careful about drawing generalizations about voting in the developed world. In Canada, my grandmother didn't need any "ID" to vote, period. All she needed was for me, who had acceptable ID to vouch that she was an eligible voter, voting in a riding that she was eligible to vote in. Somehow, the country has not yet devolved into an orgy of lawlessness.

djsbs 5y ago
You made a solemn oath under penalty of law. Thats not what they have in the US. I can literally come up with a common name, say Ben Levi, and vote on Ben’s behalf. If Ben decides to show up, he’s in trouble, not me. In Canada you are typically required ID. If you lied about your grandma and the real Ms. vkou shows up to vote, she’ll have ID proving who she is, and Elections Canada has your name written down to throw you in jail for lying under oath.