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I like and support all of these ideas -- trying to go off grid, becoming more self-sufficient, reducing consumption -- but I will just add that few people/famil

I like and support all of these ideas -- trying to go off grid, becoming more self-sufficient, reducing consumption -- but I will just add that few people/families historically have been entirely self-sufficient. It turns out that such a thing is a lot of work and really hard or impossible to maintain, depending on what your goals are. Even the Europeans that were settling in America in the 1700s were likely not self-sufficient -- there was plenty of gifting and trade throughout. The key is your community. If shit really does hit the fan, I'd imagine that your chance of survival is much higher if you have a community around you where there is mutual support, rather than being entirely alone in a 200 acre woodlot. (Not saying that your goal is to be 100% self-sufficient -- just pointing this out because I've idealized this before. It's an understandable reaction to the craziness of the modern world.)

y4mi 5y ago
> but I will just add that few people/families historically have been entirely self-sufficient I'm not sure why you think that should be the goal. If they're mostly self sufficient they'll be off to a much better start then others. Even if it's not perfect, its definitely better And if it actually does get really bad... They'll probably have people join them so self sufficiency won't be necessary anymore.
- mahogany 5y ago
  There are a lot of people in various "prepper-adjacent" communities that romanticize and idealize being fully self-sufficient. There's often a hyper-individualistic mentality that comes with that too. My comment is just to add context that going fully self-sufficient is extremely challenging and community is important, especially in an end-of-world scenario. To be clear, I think becoming more self-sufficient is definitely a good thing, and I strive toward that myself.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
    >I think becoming more self-sufficient is definitely a good thing Why? I live in Paris, and get my food (vegetable, fruits, bread, eggs, peas...) from an AMAP. It's like a coop for about 100 families where we pay the farmer one year in advamce for their whole annual production. It's cheaper than most supermarkets, it's local and organic, it's self sufficient (no competition, we pay the farmer well, according to their actual costs). We only have to organize the distribution weekly (take a few hours per year for every member). I bet the farmer will do better for our organization than any "self sufficient" family.
    - yodsanklai 5y ago
      What's the goal of this? eating healthier products or does it minimize environmental impact? In particular, would that model scale to the whole city of Paris?
      - y4mi 5y ago
        French farmers are notorious for getting shafted if they're selling to supermarket chains etc, so it would actually be a significant benefit to both parties. there have been several documentaries about related topics, this is a recent one: https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/095178-000-A/supermarkets-the-end-of-an-empire/ https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/095178-000-A/supermarkets-the-... (the farmers are addressed later on in the video)
    - CalRobert 5y ago
      That's beautiful, and something we need more of, but the idea behind self sufficiency is to not starve after the farmers in your coop decide to stop selling their food because historic flooding and heatwaves mean they can barely feed their own families. "What will you do when public servants leave their posts and infrastructure fails" is a fair question considering our ecological predicament.
      - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
        >the idea behind self sufficiency is to not starve after the farmers in your coop decide to stop selling their food because historic flooding and heatwaves mean they can barely feed their own families. If a professional farmer (with the best knowledge and equipment but also the full support of the coop members) can't feed us, how do you expect to better resist to floods and heatwaves on your own? As far as I know, small groups with good ties have always better fared than single families.
        CalRobert 5y ago
        We agree re: small groups with good ties. And I kinda think if we go down we're going down together. But not relying on others as much as practical could still be useful, even if it's as simple as "my farmer got covid" or "floods washed out the bridge".
retrac98 5y ago
I’m not aiming for anything as radical as a lot of the replies seem to think. I just want bit of space to breathe cleaner air, grow food and install some renewables.
- mahogany 5y ago
  I don't think you are. Maybe I should have added that at the beginning instead of the end of my comment. I think your goals -- especially the ones you outline in this comment -- are great and I have similar ones.
  - retrac98 5y ago
    Don’t worry, I didn’t think you did. Some of the other replies made some odd assumptions though. Thanks for your kind words, and best of luck.

y4mi 5y ago

> but I will just add that few people/families historically have been entirely self-sufficient I'm not sure why you think that should be the goal. If they're mostly self sufficient they'll be off to a much better start then others. Even if it's not perfect, its definitely better And if it actually does get really bad... They'll probably have people join them so self sufficiency won't be necessary anymore.

mahogany 5y ago
There are a lot of people in various "prepper-adjacent" communities that romanticize and idealize being fully self-sufficient. There's often a hyper-individualistic mentality that comes with that too. My comment is just to add context that going fully self-sufficient is extremely challenging and community is important, especially in an end-of-world scenario. To be clear, I think becoming more self-sufficient is definitely a good thing, and I strive toward that myself.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  >I think becoming more self-sufficient is definitely a good thing Why? I live in Paris, and get my food (vegetable, fruits, bread, eggs, peas...) from an AMAP. It's like a coop for about 100 families where we pay the farmer one year in advamce for their whole annual production. It's cheaper than most supermarkets, it's local and organic, it's self sufficient (no competition, we pay the farmer well, according to their actual costs). We only have to organize the distribution weekly (take a few hours per year for every member). I bet the farmer will do better for our organization than any "self sufficient" family.
  - yodsanklai 5y ago
    What's the goal of this? eating healthier products or does it minimize environmental impact? In particular, would that model scale to the whole city of Paris?
    - y4mi 5y ago
      French farmers are notorious for getting shafted if they're selling to supermarket chains etc, so it would actually be a significant benefit to both parties. there have been several documentaries about related topics, this is a recent one: https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/095178-000-A/supermarkets-the-end-of-an-empire/ https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/095178-000-A/supermarkets-the-... (the farmers are addressed later on in the video)
  - CalRobert 5y ago
    That's beautiful, and something we need more of, but the idea behind self sufficiency is to not starve after the farmers in your coop decide to stop selling their food because historic flooding and heatwaves mean they can barely feed their own families. "What will you do when public servants leave their posts and infrastructure fails" is a fair question considering our ecological predicament.
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
      >the idea behind self sufficiency is to not starve after the farmers in your coop decide to stop selling their food because historic flooding and heatwaves mean they can barely feed their own families. If a professional farmer (with the best knowledge and equipment but also the full support of the coop members) can't feed us, how do you expect to better resist to floods and heatwaves on your own? As far as I know, small groups with good ties have always better fared than single families.
      - CalRobert 5y ago
        We agree re: small groups with good ties. And I kinda think if we go down we're going down together. But not relying on others as much as practical could still be useful, even if it's as simple as "my farmer got covid" or "floods washed out the bridge".

retrac98 5y ago

I’m not aiming for anything as radical as a lot of the replies seem to think. I just want bit of space to breathe cleaner air, grow food and install some renewables.

mahogany 5y ago
I don't think you are. Maybe I should have added that at the beginning instead of the end of my comment. I think your goals -- especially the ones you outline in this comment -- are great and I have similar ones.
- retrac98 5y ago
  Don’t worry, I didn’t think you did. Some of the other replies made some odd assumptions though. Thanks for your kind words, and best of luck.