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The perception of fraud is entirely due to loser politicians telling their supporters that they only lost due to fraud, and no amount of voter ID laws will chan

The perception of fraud is entirely due to loser politicians telling their supporters that they only lost due to fraud, and no amount of voter ID laws will change that.

rayiner 5y ago
Not true. Taiwan doesn’t count votes in this highly visible public way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqKt-lPfJuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqKt-lPfJuw) because of “loser politicians.” Most western European countries also have significant voter security measures, although comparisons are often hard to make because they piggy-back voter registration on the mandatory residence registration process. In Germany for example you get a voting card in the mail, but you have to shlep to your local citizens office with proof of residency (lease, etc.) within 30 days of moving. In Georgia you can register to vote entirely on line, but they check your ID at voting time.
- HappySweeney 5y ago
  I was referring to the US, specifically.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    You think the appearance of secure elections functions any differently in the US? Whether or not election security is an actual problem, one side saying “just trust the process” is not going to be credible. That’s true in America, and that’s true in Taiwan. Hence the elaborate process in Taiwan.
    - HappySweeney 5y ago
      Yes. Before the aforementioned losers began disparaging the system, trust in the election process was high.
      - rayiner 5y ago
        Not at all. E.g. this poll from 2004: https://news.gallup.com/poll/13780/americans-worried-about-voter-fraud.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/13780/americans-worried-about-v... > Although a majority of both Republicans and Democrats express some degree of confidence in the nation's voting system, Democrats are far less confident than Republicans. The current poll shows that 59% of Democrats say they are least somewhat confident that their votes will be cast and counted (including just 13% who are very confident), compared with nearly 9 in 10 Republicans (87%, including 44% who are very confident). Right before the 2020 election, 30-40% of people in both parties though the election wouldn’t be conducted fairly: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/more-republicans-distrust-this-years-election-results-than-democrats-after-2016/amp/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/more-republicans-distru... After the 2016 election, 2/3 of Democrats believed Russia had “tampered with vote tallies” to help Trump win: https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/03/09/russias-impact-election-seen-through-partisan-eyes https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...
- unclebucknasty 5y ago
  No. Your parent is correct in the main, and you're a bit off-topic with your comparisons to other countries. Election security is a function of multiple processes and protocols that work together. The fact that one country does X does not mean that X must be done elsewhere. In the U.S., it is true that the push for voter ID laws as a supposed fraud prevention measure has been the formulation of one modern political party, as are claims of widespread fraud in general. These claims have been refuted ad nauseum by election experts for years, yet they are still used by that party as justification for voter ID and a raft of other measures that consistently have uneven impacts on specific groups. What's most recently changed is that, while these false claims were used to preemptively disenfranchise select voters pre-election, they are now being used by the loser in efforts to delegitimize the actual election results. The effect of this has been for that same political party to now introduce yet more measures in the state legislatures they control. And, in some cases, they have wrested control away from state secretaries, allocating it to themselves. All of this is on the back of false claims.
- random314 5y ago
  Your reply does not address the OP's point at all. There is a perception of voter fraud in this country, but no actual fraud. For all the talk about dead people voting, barely any such votes have showed up. A refutation of OP's statement would involve you actually demonstrating statistics of fraud across the country, not references to foreign countries and their protocols that might differ. The success of any voter registration protocol should be evaluated through the lens of Type 1 and Type 2 errors in a statistical model. There are almost zero Type 1 errors in the current US protocol. The Republican agitation is trying to increase Type 2 errors, on the faux premise that Type 1 errors are high - which is completely baseless. It is fashionable in "intellectual " forums to pretend that conservative actions have a legitimate basis, but they are mostly about undermining democracy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_and_type_II_errors https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_and_type_II_errors

The perception of fraud is entirely due to loser politicians telling their supporters that they only lost due to fraud, and no amount of voter ID laws will change that.

rayiner 5y ago

Not true. Taiwan doesn’t count votes in this highly visible public way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqKt-lPfJuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqKt-lPfJuw) because of “loser politicians.” Most western European countries also have significant voter security measures, although comparisons are often hard to make because they piggy-back voter registration on the mandatory residence registration process. In Germany for example you get a voting card in the mail, but you have to shlep to your local citizens office with proof of residency (lease, etc.) within 30 days of moving. In Georgia you can register to vote entirely on line, but they check your ID at voting time.

HappySweeney 5y ago
I was referring to the US, specifically.
- rayiner 5y ago
  You think the appearance of secure elections functions any differently in the US? Whether or not election security is an actual problem, one side saying “just trust the process” is not going to be credible. That’s true in America, and that’s true in Taiwan. Hence the elaborate process in Taiwan.
  - HappySweeney 5y ago
    Yes. Before the aforementioned losers began disparaging the system, trust in the election process was high.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      Not at all. E.g. this poll from 2004: https://news.gallup.com/poll/13780/americans-worried-about-voter-fraud.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/13780/americans-worried-about-v... > Although a majority of both Republicans and Democrats express some degree of confidence in the nation's voting system, Democrats are far less confident than Republicans. The current poll shows that 59% of Democrats say they are least somewhat confident that their votes will be cast and counted (including just 13% who are very confident), compared with nearly 9 in 10 Republicans (87%, including 44% who are very confident). Right before the 2020 election, 30-40% of people in both parties though the election wouldn’t be conducted fairly: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/more-republicans-distrust-this-years-election-results-than-democrats-after-2016/amp/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/more-republicans-distru... After the 2016 election, 2/3 of Democrats believed Russia had “tampered with vote tallies” to help Trump win: https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/03/09/russias-impact-election-seen-through-partisan-eyes https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...
unclebucknasty 5y ago
No. Your parent is correct in the main, and you're a bit off-topic with your comparisons to other countries. Election security is a function of multiple processes and protocols that work together. The fact that one country does X does not mean that X must be done elsewhere. In the U.S., it is true that the push for voter ID laws as a supposed fraud prevention measure has been the formulation of one modern political party, as are claims of widespread fraud in general. These claims have been refuted ad nauseum by election experts for years, yet they are still used by that party as justification for voter ID and a raft of other measures that consistently have uneven impacts on specific groups. What's most recently changed is that, while these false claims were used to preemptively disenfranchise select voters pre-election, they are now being used by the loser in efforts to delegitimize the actual election results. The effect of this has been for that same political party to now introduce yet more measures in the state legislatures they control. And, in some cases, they have wrested control away from state secretaries, allocating it to themselves. All of this is on the back of false claims.
random314 5y ago
Your reply does not address the OP's point at all. There is a perception of voter fraud in this country, but no actual fraud. For all the talk about dead people voting, barely any such votes have showed up. A refutation of OP's statement would involve you actually demonstrating statistics of fraud across the country, not references to foreign countries and their protocols that might differ. The success of any voter registration protocol should be evaluated through the lens of Type 1 and Type 2 errors in a statistical model. There are almost zero Type 1 errors in the current US protocol. The Republican agitation is trying to increase Type 2 errors, on the faux premise that Type 1 errors are high - which is completely baseless. It is fashionable in "intellectual " forums to pretend that conservative actions have a legitimate basis, but they are mostly about undermining democracy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_and_type_II_errors https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_and_type_II_errors