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> Sounds like you have a really hacked up system there Some people would call this 'a system that's actually being used to do something'. Don't blame users un

> Sounds like you have a really hacked up system there Some people would call this 'a system that's actually being used to do something'. Don't blame users unless it's clear they are doing something egregious with the system. Installing a different Python version shouldn't break installers, but here we are. Ubuntu should have taken a page from CoreOS, NixOS and even Arch. CoreOS with their immutable system partitions (and two of them so it can revert to a good one if the current can't boot). NixOS with the immutable packages (and the split between user and system packages). And even Arch with its release model. Sometimes you have to 'hack your system' to add a new apt source to try to get your GPU working with OpenCL, or you have to modify some config file on /etc to get something else working. Or whatever the use-case might be. Should that break upgrades then? Ubuntu really doesn't provide any guidance or utilities to help with this. At least figure out a way to install a known sane system configuration, even if it breaks the user's customization. Having a separate system partition by default would actually help a little. Even Windows allow you to snapshot and rollback changes. Something that Ubuntu users have to – guess what – "hack the system" to get.

rlpb 5y ago
> Ubuntu should have taken a page from CoreOS, NixOS and even Arch. CoreOS with their immutable system partitions (and two of them so it can revert to a good one if the current can't boot). NixOS with the immutable packages (and the split between user and system packages). And even Arch with its release model. Actually Ubuntu Core is an edition of Ubuntu that has exactly these properties. It runs read-only, with packages that can be added and removed cleanly. This does involve moving away from apt/deb, which is fundamentally incapable of this. I don't know of any plans to do this for the main Ubuntu distro itself, but consider the resistance if this were on the roadmap.
nsonha 5y ago
Obviously you put the effort into the Arch one to set up everything with Nix, and didn't do that in Ubuntu. A fairer comparison would be "a system that's actually being used to do something" in just Arch to Ubuntu or Nix on both. I'm not a heavy linux user but I know 3 guys who use Arch at work and one of them had an upgrade issue that caused them half a day to fix, this was circa 2016. I know plenty of people who use Ubuntu no issue. Not that such anecdote really means anything, just to demonstrate that they can be used to back whatever bias. > Having a separate system partition by default This is just one simple extra step when you install. And I don't know if arch has this by default? > Even Windows allow you to snapshot and rollback changes just use brfs? This is more of a linux thing has nothing to do with ubuntu
- megous 5y ago
  > And I don't know if arch has this by default? What do you mean by default? :) Arch doesn't have an automated installer that does partitioning for you. You extract some files to whatever partitioning setup you've dreamed up for yourself, setup a bootloader and reboot.
  - nsonha 5y ago
    You are the one who asked for default. Ubuntu has that but I don't think most people use it either. I don't see any harm as an option for beginners. Not that it actually happened but my parents should be able to set up ubuntu because they don't need to partitition.
ezekiel68 5y ago
Installing a different Python version shouldn't break installers, but here we are. laughs in https://xkcd.com/1987/ https://xkcd.com/1987/ .
- x-shadowban 5y ago
  Hah I always imagine this is what we will finally determine DNA to mostly be.

rlpb 5y ago

> Ubuntu should have taken a page from CoreOS, NixOS and even Arch. CoreOS with their immutable system partitions (and two of them so it can revert to a good one if the current can't boot). NixOS with the immutable packages (and the split between user and system packages). And even Arch with its release model. Actually Ubuntu Core is an edition of Ubuntu that has exactly these properties. It runs read-only, with packages that can be added and removed cleanly. This does involve moving away from apt/deb, which is fundamentally incapable of this. I don't know of any plans to do this for the main Ubuntu distro itself, but consider the resistance if this were on the roadmap.

nsonha 5y ago

Obviously you put the effort into the Arch one to set up everything with Nix, and didn't do that in Ubuntu. A fairer comparison would be "a system that's actually being used to do something" in just Arch to Ubuntu or Nix on both. I'm not a heavy linux user but I know 3 guys who use Arch at work and one of them had an upgrade issue that caused them half a day to fix, this was circa 2016. I know plenty of people who use Ubuntu no issue. Not that such anecdote really means anything, just to demonstrate that they can be used to back whatever bias. > Having a separate system partition by default This is just one simple extra step when you install. And I don't know if arch has this by default? > Even Windows allow you to snapshot and rollback changes just use brfs? This is more of a linux thing has nothing to do with ubuntu

megous 5y ago
> And I don't know if arch has this by default? What do you mean by default? :) Arch doesn't have an automated installer that does partitioning for you. You extract some files to whatever partitioning setup you've dreamed up for yourself, setup a bootloader and reboot.
- nsonha 5y ago
  You are the one who asked for default. Ubuntu has that but I don't think most people use it either. I don't see any harm as an option for beginners. Not that it actually happened but my parents should be able to set up ubuntu because they don't need to partitition.

ezekiel68 5y ago

Installing a different Python version shouldn't break installers, but here we are. laughs in https://xkcd.com/1987/ https://xkcd.com/1987/ .

x-shadowban 5y ago
Hah I always imagine this is what we will finally determine DNA to mostly be.