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It is so crazy to me that Americans seem like the most patriotic people on the planet (but I'm American, so maybe I am missing things) BUT... ... given the cho

by xrd 5y ago

It is so crazy to me that Americans seem like the most patriotic people on the planet (but I'm American, so maybe I am missing things) BUT... ... given the choice of buying something local or from Amazon (that comes from China) if it costs $1 less, Americans will almost always go for the Chinese merchandise, or shop at Walmart to save a few bucks. .. given a choice between news that is written by locals, or a newspaper as described in the article, where they outsource the design work to the Phillipines, at least a large percentage of Americans will simply go with the better designed one, and never question the messenger. Americans are a very confused tribe, in my opinion, and I say that as one of them.

simonebrunozzi 5y ago
As a foreigner, who has lived in the US for ~9 years, I can say that I mostly admire the "sane" patriotic spirit that most Americans have ("not sane" would be the racist, xenophobic type, which I instead condemn). Your points about where money is spent still stands; but I don't think it makes Americans less patriotic. You might also be true that they are "a very confused tribe", but rest assured that most people in the world think the same about their people.
- xrd 5y ago
  That's reassuring to know we are all nuts! Thanks for that. ;)
snarf21 5y ago
Yeah, everyone wants dollar stores but forgets that they only exist because of exploiting foreign labor. If we made the same garbage here, it would cost a lot lot more. And eventually, this will be done via automation and the jobs will disappear over there too. We don't like to think about how other people are treated and have somehow convinced ourselves that we deserve to be treated better because they "don't have to do the crappy job". And this isn't just overseas. Look at the Nabisco and Kellogg strikes; I didn't see mass protesting going viral online and people refusing to buy those products. I'm sure people who know someone directly affected were more likely to boycott. It is sad that we are such a selfish species and have completely lost all empathy.
- kwere 5y ago
  >And eventually, this will be done via automation and the jobs will disappear over there too. so? capacity production and machinerized wealth will be local and accessible from society as whole
  - matthewdgreen 5y ago
    That’s true. Unless we build a society where individual survival requires the vast majority of people to sell their labor. Then we’re (mostly) in big trouble.
btheshoe 5y ago
Part of this is because America is like three or four different countries compressed into a single uncohesive whole
sangnoir 5y ago
> Americans will almost always go for the Chinese merchandise, or shop at Walmart to save a few bucks. For a majority of Americans, saving "a few bucks" makes a huge difference - that could be the difference between being able to buy $5 worth of gas they need to go to their next shift[1]. If you don't mind me asking - how much money (ballpark) can you spend on an impulse purchase? For some its single digit dollars, others tens, hundreds or thousands of dollars. When there's a difference of 3 magnitudes or order between people, the other's purchasing habits can seem alien (in both directions). Unbridled capitalism doesn't inherently optimize for the long-term stability of the entire system - instead, it is mostly a bunch of local maximums. 1. I never pass up the opportunity to link to Scalzi's timeless essay on "Being Poor" https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/ https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/
- Tycho 5y ago
  Are you sure about that? That the majority of Americans are in a position where a few dollars makes a huge difference to their day? I’d be surprised.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    That was a carelessly chosen word - a significant portion of the population - everyone who's on EBT/food stamps or works minimum wage.
pphysch 5y ago
Americanism is liberalism in the classical (Lockean) sense: individualism above all. This trumps our sense of patriotism/tribalism/nationalism/collectivism at almost every turn. In America, individual opinions are sacred proof of mind and soul. Being part of an intellectual consensus is frowned upon, because it suggests you aren't thinking for yourself. Americans do not value consensus, and in fact tend to value discord and disagreement--because it implies the existence of multiple differentiated individual opinions. That's why everything is polarized. It's a feature, not a bug. It's easy to observe: most "Republican" voters aren't really enthusiastic members of the GOP, they just hate the Blue politicians more than the Red politicians. Likewise for the Democratic Party towards the GOP. "Red" voters are actually "not-Blue" voters. So of course Americans will buy the cheap imported product. It's in their individual microeconomic interest, and that matters far more than any political or national interest. My point is that reducing American cultural discontent to "tribalism" disguises the fact that Americans are perhaps the least collective-minded population on the planet.
- rackjack 5y ago
  ... and "Blue" voters are actually "not-Red" voters! Interesting perspective, thank you for sharing.
- judahmeek 5y ago
  All you're really doing is pointing out that "tribalism" doesn't mean what people think it means. Reactionary anti-X mentality is just as bad as group-think, if not worse.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    I agree, it's far worse.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
themaninthedark 5y ago
It wasn't always this way. Walmart used to proudly display banners with 'Made in America' on them. But as companies county, the poor and then the middle class downsized as well. Companies left looking to lower costs, the public was wooed with lower prices and the idea that you could get more now and the politicians made promises that the affected sectors would be retrained, first we would have a service economy then it became knowledge workers. It turns out that the service economy is fickle and doesn't pay well for the most part. Not everyone can be a knowledge worker and that is not outsource proof either. Now we are in a trap where companies can not return because they would have to raise their prices and reduce profits and the people who used to work for them can't afford to buy their products now.
refurb 5y ago
These same issues exist in other countries. That's the one thing I've noticed about Americans. They get worked up about what a sorry state the US is in without the awareness that many countries face those same issues (or worse).

by xrd 5y ago

simonebrunozzi 5y ago

As a foreigner, who has lived in the US for ~9 years, I can say that I mostly admire the "sane" patriotic spirit that most Americans have ("not sane" would be the racist, xenophobic type, which I instead condemn). Your points about where money is spent still stands; but I don't think it makes Americans less patriotic. You might also be true that they are "a very confused tribe", but rest assured that most people in the world think the same about their people.

xrd 5y ago
That's reassuring to know we are all nuts! Thanks for that. ;)

snarf21 5y ago

Yeah, everyone wants dollar stores but forgets that they only exist because of exploiting foreign labor. If we made the same garbage here, it would cost a lot lot more. And eventually, this will be done via automation and the jobs will disappear over there too. We don't like to think about how other people are treated and have somehow convinced ourselves that we deserve to be treated better because they "don't have to do the crappy job". And this isn't just overseas. Look at the Nabisco and Kellogg strikes; I didn't see mass protesting going viral online and people refusing to buy those products. I'm sure people who know someone directly affected were more likely to boycott. It is sad that we are such a selfish species and have completely lost all empathy.

kwere 5y ago
>And eventually, this will be done via automation and the jobs will disappear over there too. so? capacity production and machinerized wealth will be local and accessible from society as whole
- matthewdgreen 5y ago
  That’s true. Unless we build a society where individual survival requires the vast majority of people to sell their labor. Then we’re (mostly) in big trouble.

btheshoe 5y ago

Part of this is because America is like three or four different countries compressed into a single uncohesive whole

sangnoir 5y ago

> Americans will almost always go for the Chinese merchandise, or shop at Walmart to save a few bucks. For a majority of Americans, saving "a few bucks" makes a huge difference - that could be the difference between being able to buy $5 worth of gas they need to go to their next shift[1]. If you don't mind me asking - how much money (ballpark) can you spend on an impulse purchase? For some its single digit dollars, others tens, hundreds or thousands of dollars. When there's a difference of 3 magnitudes or order between people, the other's purchasing habits can seem alien (in both directions). Unbridled capitalism doesn't inherently optimize for the long-term stability of the entire system - instead, it is mostly a bunch of local maximums. 1. I never pass up the opportunity to link to Scalzi's timeless essay on "Being Poor" https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/ https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/

Tycho 5y ago
Are you sure about that? That the majority of Americans are in a position where a few dollars makes a huge difference to their day? I’d be surprised.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  That was a carelessly chosen word - a significant portion of the population - everyone who's on EBT/food stamps or works minimum wage.

pphysch 5y ago

Americanism is liberalism in the classical (Lockean) sense: individualism above all. This trumps our sense of patriotism/tribalism/nationalism/collectivism at almost every turn. In America, individual opinions are sacred proof of mind and soul. Being part of an intellectual consensus is frowned upon, because it suggests you aren't thinking for yourself. Americans do not value consensus, and in fact tend to value discord and disagreement--because it implies the existence of multiple differentiated individual opinions. That's why everything is polarized. It's a feature, not a bug. It's easy to observe: most "Republican" voters aren't really enthusiastic members of the GOP, they just hate the Blue politicians more than the Red politicians. Likewise for the Democratic Party towards the GOP. "Red" voters are actually "not-Blue" voters. So of course Americans will buy the cheap imported product. It's in their individual microeconomic interest, and that matters far more than any political or national interest. My point is that reducing American cultural discontent to "tribalism" disguises the fact that Americans are perhaps the least collective-minded population on the planet.

rackjack 5y ago
... and "Blue" voters are actually "not-Red" voters! Interesting perspective, thank you for sharing.
judahmeek 5y ago
All you're really doing is pointing out that "tribalism" doesn't mean what people think it means. Reactionary anti-X mentality is just as bad as group-think, if not worse.
- pphysch 5y ago
  I agree, it's far worse.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

themaninthedark 5y ago

It wasn't always this way. Walmart used to proudly display banners with 'Made in America' on them. But as companies county, the poor and then the middle class downsized as well. Companies left looking to lower costs, the public was wooed with lower prices and the idea that you could get more now and the politicians made promises that the affected sectors would be retrained, first we would have a service economy then it became knowledge workers. It turns out that the service economy is fickle and doesn't pay well for the most part. Not everyone can be a knowledge worker and that is not outsource proof either. Now we are in a trap where companies can not return because they would have to raise their prices and reduce profits and the people who used to work for them can't afford to buy their products now.

refurb 5y ago

These same issues exist in other countries. That's the one thing I've noticed about Americans. They get worked up about what a sorry state the US is in without the awareness that many countries face those same issues (or worse).