4 ms·

Citizenship is a meaningful thing to most people. Of course it's a legal fiction, but so is marriage. Personally I've never given up a citizenship, but I imagin

Citizenship is a meaningful thing to most people. Of course it's a legal fiction, but so is marriage. Personally I've never given up a citizenship, but I imagine that it'd be an emotional experience.

jkfdrsak 5y ago
Marriage is voluntary and almost always necessitates an emotional element.
- digbybk 5y ago
  Based on this post, apparently citizenship is also voluntary. You might say that giving up citizenship is difficult and expensive, but you should talk to someone who has gone through a divorce. I would also counter that citizenship also almost always necessitates an emotional element. Citizenship is a primary part of many people's identity, and identity is the most emotionally charged thing of all.
  - jkfdrsak 5y ago
    Divorce might be expensive, but never getting married is cheep.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  I mean sure, but on the other hand WTF? I understand not sharing the emotions regarding the country, patriotism, the 4th of July, the standing for the pledge from school years onward etc. but despite your freedom from the effects of all this it should probably cross your mind that not everyone else is free in the same way.
PKop 5y ago
It's either a fiction or it's real. And given the privileges that come with being a citizen, of course it is not a fiction. But if it is meaningful, why should it not come with a cost? Nations as constructed obviously provide value to the people residing there, should this not come with corresponding responsibilities? Like paying taxes? And if there is value and meaning to being a citizen of a specific country why should a nation not place restrictions and requirements on this privilege? I could even see for example the incentive to ban dual citizenship as one. Why is it just assumed that keeping a bunch of citizenships, not paying taxes to that country, all while not living in that country is a thing that should exist? It seems like these people want their cake and to eat it too. If the country wasn't good enough to live in, why would you expect to keep the citizenship if you leave? "Marriage" is a two-way street..
- digbybk 5y ago
  > It's either a fiction or it's real. This I disagree with. Nations are real in the sense that they have a material impact on the world, but are fictions in the sense that they only exist when people believe in their existence. It's like money. Obviously money is real - I have some in my wallet right now - but if no one believed in the currency then it wouldn't exist. It would just be pieces of paper. > Nations as constructed obviously provide value to the people residing there I would quibble with the assertion that this is the _reason_ nations are constructed, but I do agree that they provide value. Some people's lives are just more complicated. I'm a dual citizen myself, with two citizenships from birth. I was born in Canada from two American parents. I've had two passports all my life. I happen to live in the US but I've never really chosen one country over the other. I derive identify from being a citizen of North America. There are plenty of people with slightly more complicated than average stories, they should be able to exist.
- 001Diana 5y ago
  This is not “having your cake and eating it too,” it’s much more complex. It also is never a case of “the country wasn’t good enough to live in.” I would love to live in the USA. That is not where life took me. At its simplest Americans are not free to live anywhere in the world the way citizens of all other countries are (even Eritrea, the only other country that taxes it’s citizens based on citizenship, does not subject its citizens to the same tax complexity). All Americans should be outraged over their lack of freedom in this regard. 20 years ago I could not have imagined I’d end up living in Australia, but we don’t always know where life will lead us. Many people are born to American parents overseas and are required to spend thousands yearly to file or pay $2350 to renounce. Paying double tax to two countries is unachievable for the majority of us. There are treaties in place to avoid the is happening, however the cost of having a specialist accountant file every year is astronomical. I have paid over $25k to accountants and never once owed tax to the US. There are also some seriously unconstitutional and human rights violations going on. The surprise retroactive Transition tax of 2017 has financially ruined many small business owners, in some cases taking all their retirement savings. These are people who have worked and paid taxes in their residence country for their lifetime. There is a case in front of the Supreme Court challenging this right now.
Lordarminius 5y ago
I'm interested in knowing:how is citizenship a legal fiction ?
- arcticbull 5y ago
  I think its most clear at the extents. For instance, if you live in Point Roberts. [1] Most people also associate citizenship with right of abode, but that's not always true either. For instance, the BN(O)s from Hong Kong are British Citizens who on that basis cannot live in England or Hong Kong - or anywhere. A separate document, an HKID or a visa, are required for them to live in HK and the UK respectively. At the end of the day it's just paperwork that decides who negotiates your right to travel and is responsible for coming to get you if things go bad. It doesn't really mean much else. Where you live and the government you engage with regularly in my opinion has far more bearing on you, your obligations and your benefits. [1] https://goo.gl/maps/tmia7U6hef3Pvf4v8 https://goo.gl/maps/tmia7U6hef3Pvf4v8
- digbybk 5y ago
  It exists only when people believe it exists. If no one believed in your citizenship, your passport would just be a little notebook with no value. When going from a world without citizenship to a world with it, nothing needs to change outside of the human brain. In that sense, it’s a fiction.
  - jkepler 5y ago
    No. A passport says what country must take you when other places decide to deport you or refuse you entry.
    - digbybk 5y ago
      You may be missing my point. If no one believes in the country’s existence, including the people who live in the land that the country is purported to encompass, then it doesn’t exist. Nations aren’t tangible physical objects. They exist in the collective human imagination. Yes. Your passport is just a notebook if no one believes in the country it is supposed to be for.

Citizenship is a meaningful thing to most people. Of course it's a legal fiction, but so is marriage. Personally I've never given up a citizenship, but I imagine that it'd be an emotional experience.

jkfdrsak 5y ago

Marriage is voluntary and almost always necessitates an emotional element.

digbybk 5y ago
Based on this post, apparently citizenship is also voluntary. You might say that giving up citizenship is difficult and expensive, but you should talk to someone who has gone through a divorce. I would also counter that citizenship also almost always necessitates an emotional element. Citizenship is a primary part of many people's identity, and identity is the most emotionally charged thing of all.
- jkfdrsak 5y ago
  Divorce might be expensive, but never getting married is cheep.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
I mean sure, but on the other hand WTF? I understand not sharing the emotions regarding the country, patriotism, the 4th of July, the standing for the pledge from school years onward etc. but despite your freedom from the effects of all this it should probably cross your mind that not everyone else is free in the same way.

PKop 5y ago

It's either a fiction or it's real. And given the privileges that come with being a citizen, of course it is not a fiction. But if it is meaningful, why should it not come with a cost? Nations as constructed obviously provide value to the people residing there, should this not come with corresponding responsibilities? Like paying taxes? And if there is value and meaning to being a citizen of a specific country why should a nation not place restrictions and requirements on this privilege? I could even see for example the incentive to ban dual citizenship as one. Why is it just assumed that keeping a bunch of citizenships, not paying taxes to that country, all while not living in that country is a thing that should exist? It seems like these people want their cake and to eat it too. If the country wasn't good enough to live in, why would you expect to keep the citizenship if you leave? "Marriage" is a two-way street..

digbybk 5y ago
> It's either a fiction or it's real. This I disagree with. Nations are real in the sense that they have a material impact on the world, but are fictions in the sense that they only exist when people believe in their existence. It's like money. Obviously money is real - I have some in my wallet right now - but if no one believed in the currency then it wouldn't exist. It would just be pieces of paper. > Nations as constructed obviously provide value to the people residing there I would quibble with the assertion that this is the _reason_ nations are constructed, but I do agree that they provide value. Some people's lives are just more complicated. I'm a dual citizen myself, with two citizenships from birth. I was born in Canada from two American parents. I've had two passports all my life. I happen to live in the US but I've never really chosen one country over the other. I derive identify from being a citizen of North America. There are plenty of people with slightly more complicated than average stories, they should be able to exist.
001Diana 5y ago
This is not “having your cake and eating it too,” it’s much more complex. It also is never a case of “the country wasn’t good enough to live in.” I would love to live in the USA. That is not where life took me. At its simplest Americans are not free to live anywhere in the world the way citizens of all other countries are (even Eritrea, the only other country that taxes it’s citizens based on citizenship, does not subject its citizens to the same tax complexity). All Americans should be outraged over their lack of freedom in this regard. 20 years ago I could not have imagined I’d end up living in Australia, but we don’t always know where life will lead us. Many people are born to American parents overseas and are required to spend thousands yearly to file or pay $2350 to renounce. Paying double tax to two countries is unachievable for the majority of us. There are treaties in place to avoid the is happening, however the cost of having a specialist accountant file every year is astronomical. I have paid over $25k to accountants and never once owed tax to the US. There are also some seriously unconstitutional and human rights violations going on. The surprise retroactive Transition tax of 2017 has financially ruined many small business owners, in some cases taking all their retirement savings. These are people who have worked and paid taxes in their residence country for their lifetime. There is a case in front of the Supreme Court challenging this right now.

Lordarminius 5y ago

I'm interested in knowing:how is citizenship a legal fiction ?

arcticbull 5y ago
I think its most clear at the extents. For instance, if you live in Point Roberts. [1] Most people also associate citizenship with right of abode, but that's not always true either. For instance, the BN(O)s from Hong Kong are British Citizens who on that basis cannot live in England or Hong Kong - or anywhere. A separate document, an HKID or a visa, are required for them to live in HK and the UK respectively. At the end of the day it's just paperwork that decides who negotiates your right to travel and is responsible for coming to get you if things go bad. It doesn't really mean much else. Where you live and the government you engage with regularly in my opinion has far more bearing on you, your obligations and your benefits. [1] https://goo.gl/maps/tmia7U6hef3Pvf4v8 https://goo.gl/maps/tmia7U6hef3Pvf4v8
digbybk 5y ago
It exists only when people believe it exists. If no one believed in your citizenship, your passport would just be a little notebook with no value. When going from a world without citizenship to a world with it, nothing needs to change outside of the human brain. In that sense, it’s a fiction.
- jkepler 5y ago
  No. A passport says what country must take you when other places decide to deport you or refuse you entry.
  - digbybk 5y ago
    You may be missing my point. If no one believes in the country’s existence, including the people who live in the land that the country is purported to encompass, then it doesn’t exist. Nations aren’t tangible physical objects. They exist in the collective human imagination. Yes. Your passport is just a notebook if no one believes in the country it is supposed to be for.