24 ms·

This is like asking why if seatbelts work, we don't let people drunk drive (obviously drunk driving is more dangerous than being unvaccinated, not claiming it's

by Latty 5y ago

This is like asking why if seatbelts work, we don't let people drunk drive (obviously drunk driving is more dangerous than being unvaccinated, not claiming it's a perfect 1:1 analogy, before people complain, just making the point that just because we have safeguards doesn't mean we can ignore the core issue). Vaccines and masks work, but they aren't 100% effective. The effectiveness of vaccines is far higher if everyone who can be vaccinated is, as the protective effect is multiplicative. There are people who can't be vaccinated, or who are at higher risk, and people who are just unlucky. They don't have a choice. They are affected by other's choices. The "personal responsibility" narrative is nonsense when it comes to communicable diseases.

short12 5y ago
Is drunk driving more dangerous than being unvaccinated? Just glancing at the stats drunk driving is significantly safer than being unvaccinated
- Latty 5y ago
  I honestly don't know, my instinct is that in terms of danger to others (which was the topic at hand) it probably is, but either way, that wasn't really relevant to my point.
  - short12 5y ago
    It is definitely relevant to your point because assumptions are being made about which has a worse outcome. Turns out on the national level drunk driving is a pittance vs unvaccinated. To bad they don't have equal liability
asguy 5y ago
> This is like asking why if seatbelts work, we don't let people drunk drive If seatbelts were as effective as vaccines are supposed to be, then that comparison would start holding water. Instead of a seatbelt, you should use the foam crash deployment from Demolition Man as your example. I can’t wait until that’s available. Oddly enough I’ve been hit by a drunk driver. He endangered my life by drinking well beyond his limits and operating a motorvehicle, and then making a massive mistake by running a red light and t-boning me. That has no similarity to someone unvaccinated breathing next to me. Based on what I’ve read someone could be vaccinated, and still infect me with a “breakthrough case”. So all I can do is protect myself using the tools available. If the tools don’t work, well, the unvaccinated might be just as doomed as I am.
- Latty 5y ago
  What you can do is expect to be in an environment where everyone is vaccinated to give you the best possible safety. Of course there is always a risk, virtually nothing in this world is a guarantee, that doesn't mean all risks are equal. The vaccine works, but it isn't 100%. Acting like that means we shouldn't bother is weird.
  - asguy 5y ago
    It’s not weird. Vaccine mandates for covid are demanding people make health decisions they haven’t bought into. It’s not like covid is polio. The risk models are different. I had covid, it was like a really bad flu. I got vaccinated because I wanted to travel, and the adenovirus vector didn’t seem that risky. Why would I push that choice on someone else given what I know first-hand of the disease?
    - lsaferite 5y ago
      > I had covid, it was like a really bad flu This is not the only outcome of getting COVID-19.
      - asguy 5y ago
        What outcome should I be looking out for?
        rbanffy 5y ago
        You had a ~3% chance of dying and a much larger chance of having lasting debilitating symptoms. Everyone you infected while having transmissible COVID faced the same odds. If you infected 100 people, it’s likely 3 people would die.
        m-p-3 5y ago
        List of potentially permanent post COVID symptoms * fatigue * memory problems sleep disturbances shortness of breath * anxiety and depression * general pain and discomfort difficulty thinking or concentrating posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/symptoms/post-covid-19-condition.html#s https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/201... An example of an otherwise healthy person in excellent shape who is likely to have to face a career-ending post COVID life: https://nationalpost.com/news/an-anti-vaxxer-edmonton-oiler-got-covid-and-now-his-hockey-career-might-be-over https://nationalpost.com/news/an-anti-vaxxer-edmonton-oiler-...
native_samples 5y ago
"The effectiveness of vaccines is far higher if everyone who can be vaccinated is, as the protective effect is multiplicative." That appears to be a talking point that was just invented on the spot. No, vaccines don't have any kind of multiplicative effect. How would that work? That isn't what herd immunity means (or are we still not supposed to talk about that concept? I can't keep track). Herd immunity doesn't change the effectiveness of the vaccine for those who took it, it's only meant to be of benefit to people who don't (can't/won't) take it. Especially there cannot be any such effect from a 100% leaky vaccines that have already entirely stopped protecting people against infection - see the UK stats for proof.

by Latty 5y ago

short12 5y ago

Is drunk driving more dangerous than being unvaccinated? Just glancing at the stats drunk driving is significantly safer than being unvaccinated

Latty 5y ago
I honestly don't know, my instinct is that in terms of danger to others (which was the topic at hand) it probably is, but either way, that wasn't really relevant to my point.
- short12 5y ago
  It is definitely relevant to your point because assumptions are being made about which has a worse outcome. Turns out on the national level drunk driving is a pittance vs unvaccinated. To bad they don't have equal liability

asguy 5y ago

> This is like asking why if seatbelts work, we don't let people drunk drive If seatbelts were as effective as vaccines are supposed to be, then that comparison would start holding water. Instead of a seatbelt, you should use the foam crash deployment from Demolition Man as your example. I can’t wait until that’s available. Oddly enough I’ve been hit by a drunk driver. He endangered my life by drinking well beyond his limits and operating a motorvehicle, and then making a massive mistake by running a red light and t-boning me. That has no similarity to someone unvaccinated breathing next to me. Based on what I’ve read someone could be vaccinated, and still infect me with a “breakthrough case”. So all I can do is protect myself using the tools available. If the tools don’t work, well, the unvaccinated might be just as doomed as I am.

Latty 5y ago
What you can do is expect to be in an environment where everyone is vaccinated to give you the best possible safety. Of course there is always a risk, virtually nothing in this world is a guarantee, that doesn't mean all risks are equal. The vaccine works, but it isn't 100%. Acting like that means we shouldn't bother is weird.
- asguy 5y ago
  It’s not weird. Vaccine mandates for covid are demanding people make health decisions they haven’t bought into. It’s not like covid is polio. The risk models are different. I had covid, it was like a really bad flu. I got vaccinated because I wanted to travel, and the adenovirus vector didn’t seem that risky. Why would I push that choice on someone else given what I know first-hand of the disease?
  - lsaferite 5y ago
    > I had covid, it was like a really bad flu This is not the only outcome of getting COVID-19.
    - asguy 5y ago
      What outcome should I be looking out for?
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        You had a ~3% chance of dying and a much larger chance of having lasting debilitating symptoms. Everyone you infected while having transmissible COVID faced the same odds. If you infected 100 people, it’s likely 3 people would die.
      - m-p-3 5y ago
        List of potentially permanent post COVID symptoms * fatigue * memory problems sleep disturbances shortness of breath * anxiety and depression * general pain and discomfort difficulty thinking or concentrating posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/symptoms/post-covid-19-condition.html#s https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/201... An example of an otherwise healthy person in excellent shape who is likely to have to face a career-ending post COVID life: https://nationalpost.com/news/an-anti-vaxxer-edmonton-oiler-got-covid-and-now-his-hockey-career-might-be-over https://nationalpost.com/news/an-anti-vaxxer-edmonton-oiler-...

native_samples 5y ago

"The effectiveness of vaccines is far higher if everyone who can be vaccinated is, as the protective effect is multiplicative." That appears to be a talking point that was just invented on the spot. No, vaccines don't have any kind of multiplicative effect. How would that work? That isn't what herd immunity means (or are we still not supposed to talk about that concept? I can't keep track). Herd immunity doesn't change the effectiveness of the vaccine for those who took it, it's only meant to be of benefit to people who don't (can't/won't) take it. Especially there cannot be any such effect from a 100% leaky vaccines that have already entirely stopped protecting people against infection - see the UK stats for proof.