4 ms·

Her essentially 3 reasons for renouncing essentially and my responses: >I could vote in the US, but no one represents the needs of US citizens abroad because o

Her essentially 3 reasons for renouncing essentially and my responses: >I could vote in the US, but no one represents the needs of US citizens abroad because our votes are dispersed over all 50 states. * there's hundreds of millions of people and only two parties in the U.S. no one represents anybodies needs well >I pay almost $1000 per year to an accountant to fill out the forms—more and lengthier than they’d be if I lived in the US—only to prove I owe nothing, since I pay taxes here in the Netherlands. FATCA forces me to hand over my private financial information, as well as my non-American husband’s, to an extent that homeland Americans don’t have to unless they’re suspected of a crime. FATCA strong-arms our local banks into handing over our private financial information as well. It treats my local accounts as being equivalent to hiding money overseas. * Taxes and the FATCA issues....to me and I'm sure billions of other people: $1000$ bucks a year is well worth it for a U.S. citizenship...Turning over financial records of the non-American spouse...this one doesn't add up, just do Married Filing Separately status in tax return. >Without an address in the US, I can’t open an investment account there; with US nationality, it is becoming more and more difficult to do any investment or borrowing outside of the US. * this doesn't make sense. Why would having a citizenship affect if a Dutch bank loaned you money as long as your credit score was good? The reasons she gives don't make sense to me...something feels off here.

unhammer 5y ago
If you have access to your spouse's account you may need to enter that into the FBAR form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act#FBAR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act#FBAR Regarding the difficulty of investing/borrowing outside the US: Non-US banks are required to report stuff to the US if they have US customers. So they might not want US customers because it's a hassle for them.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  And that in turn is not in line with EU law - if not in letter then at least in spirit so banks are caught between two powers and in turn offload that burden onto the citizens. Realistically as an American abroad you can do it but there is a continuous cost and stress associated with remaining a US citizen. I know several people that have gone down this path and a few who are doing it right now, the US seems outright vindictive against those that want to leave, a bit like an abusive spouse that can't imagine there is a life after them for you.
- Ichthypresbyter 5y ago
  As a US citizen who lived in the Netherlands until recently, at least one bank (ABN AMRO) is fine with US customers, and is also attractive to expats in other ways- for instance, they will do more of their correspondence in English than other banks. It required maybe 20 minutes in an office at my local branch when I opened my account for them to have dealt with everything, and then my banking experience was no different from anyone else's. The problem in the Netherlands isn't so much expats who grew up in the US, but "accidental Americans" who were born in the US and left as small children. They are US citizens, but don't have an SSN, which Dutch banks require to comply with US law (and with pandemic-related embassy closures, obtaining one isn't necessarily easy).
  - Someone 5y ago
    I don’t think ABN AMRO is completely fine with US customers today, given that they have an US persons disclaimer and have a phone number for questions regarding it (https://www.abnamro.nl/en/personal/specially-for/us-persons.html https://www.abnamro.nl/en/personal/specially-for/us-persons....) Problem is that FATCA requires banks to actively send the US government personal information about its customers with US citizenship, while the GDPR forbids them from doing so without consent from their customers (https://americanexpatfinance.com/tax/item/632-eu-data-protection-board-to-revisit-fatca https://americanexpatfinance.com/tax/item/632-eu-data-protec...) But yes, accidental Americans definitely are a weird case. Some of them don’t even know they have US citizenship until the IRS sends them a message, or when, upon visiting the USA, border control requires them to show a US passport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American#Awareness_of_U.S._citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American#Awareness_...)
JeromeLon 5y ago
You mentioned it. FATCA is not targeting US citizens abroad, it's targeting financial organisations who have US citizens as clients. So, many banks around the world will have "Are you a US citizen" as one of the first questions to open an account, and if the answer is yes, they will politely decline any further requests.
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  Are there NO workarounds? I noticed you said 'many' and not 'all' banks. It looks like these banks work for expats. https://dutchreview.com/expat/best-banks-expats-netherlands/ https://dutchreview.com/expat/best-banks-expats-netherlands/ Something doesn't add up. From a non rich persons perspective it appears that person gave up her citizenship so she could essentially have a better selection of banks and to not have to use a VPN? It seems like a US citizenship is worth it? The actual real problems are not clear to me.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    She also wrote "Without an address in the US, I can’t open an investment account there; with US nationality, it is becoming more and more difficult to do any investment or borrowing outside of the US.". Yeah, how to remain non rich: keep your money in a savings account and not invest in stocks, etc. Want to start a business? Need a loan for that? Sorry... Also that webpage doesn't even say those banks accept American clients, "expats" don't mean American, EU freedom of movement and ease of getting work visa means there's people from all over the world in the EU, either temporarily or permanently. Addendum: I've also talked to someone who said she couldn't take some jobs because if she has access to the company's bank account, she has to report that to the IRS, maybe even the amount in that account, which of course no foreign company would volunteer unless they really have to.
  - a3e3 5y ago
    That page describes the situation for expats in general. It's different for U.S. citizens. Bunq, the first bank that's listed, has special requirements: https://together.bunq.com/d/2318-why-are-there-special-regulations-for-u-s-people https://together.bunq.com/d/2318-why-are-there-special-regul... With an SSN you can open a basic checking and savings account. However, you'll be denied for any type of investments. This also means U.S. citizens can't participate in pension plans of Dutch employees. Even local crypto exchanges are refusing service: https://bitonic.nl/en/faq/33/what-is-a-us-person https://bitonic.nl/en/faq/33/what-is-a-us-person Meanwhile, banks and brokers in the U.S. require a permanent residential address. For example, Wealthfront states they don't "support clients residing outside of the U.S., including U.S. citizens residing abroad". Additionally, The Netherlands has a wealth tax. Even on unrealized gains. Each year you pay taxes on stocks you haven't sold yet. Then, when you actually do sell, you can't use the previous years of Dutch taxes that you've paid to offset the U.S. capital gains tax. It's especially complicated for so called Accidental Americans. Many of whom don't have or know their SSN. To get one you must submit your birth certificate and US passport. If you don't have those it's quite difficult to get them. When you finally obtain your SSN, renouncing is a challenge in itself. It requires filing tax returns for the past 3 years + 6 years of FBAR (you'll most likely need an accountant for this or face steep penalties), pay $2300 to renounce, and then file another tax return for the year in which you renounced.
sanedigital 5y ago
It’s clear from your response that you’re not at all familiar with the issues here. I’m a bit confused as to why you’d feel the need to share your opinion on a topic where you’re very clearly not well informed. As an American expat for five years, I can assure you her complaints are accurate. 1. Not remotely the same. As a resident of a particular state, your senators and congresspeople are certainly looking out for your state’s interests. As an expat, almost nobody cares. 2. FATCA doesn’t care how you file. If you’re married, your spouse is included. 3. Most investment banks will no longer accept expats as clients, and go so far as to monitor and close accounts for people consistently logging in from overseas. When we lived abroad we had to be very careful with VPNs, and often had our US-resident parents monitor our accounts for us just in case.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  >As a resident of a particular state, your senators and congresspeople are certainly looking out for your state’s interests. You've apparently forgotten a whole lot in your five years as an expat.
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  > It’s clear from your response that you’re not at all familiar with the issues here Im NOT! I'm trying to understand it. It appears that she's giving up her citizenship so she doesn't have to use a VPN and has a better selection of banks and to avoid paying $1000 a year? Seems like a citizenship is worth WAY more than that! Something doesn't add up here! Or do people with a lot of money just have a lot less tolerance for inconveniences than average moneyed people?
  - cheese_van 5y ago
    In many EU countries, to have a telephone line (land or mobile). The same with internet access: you must have a bank account. But most local banks do not want local US customers. It's prohibitively onerous for them. Imagine trying to establish a life without a telephone or internet.
  - _g5q8 5y ago

unhammer 5y ago

If you have access to your spouse's account you may need to enter that into the FBAR form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act#FBAR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act#FBAR Regarding the difficulty of investing/borrowing outside the US: Non-US banks are required to report stuff to the US if they have US customers. So they might not want US customers because it's a hassle for them.

jacquesm 5y ago
And that in turn is not in line with EU law - if not in letter then at least in spirit so banks are caught between two powers and in turn offload that burden onto the citizens. Realistically as an American abroad you can do it but there is a continuous cost and stress associated with remaining a US citizen. I know several people that have gone down this path and a few who are doing it right now, the US seems outright vindictive against those that want to leave, a bit like an abusive spouse that can't imagine there is a life after them for you.
Ichthypresbyter 5y ago
As a US citizen who lived in the Netherlands until recently, at least one bank (ABN AMRO) is fine with US customers, and is also attractive to expats in other ways- for instance, they will do more of their correspondence in English than other banks. It required maybe 20 minutes in an office at my local branch when I opened my account for them to have dealt with everything, and then my banking experience was no different from anyone else's. The problem in the Netherlands isn't so much expats who grew up in the US, but "accidental Americans" who were born in the US and left as small children. They are US citizens, but don't have an SSN, which Dutch banks require to comply with US law (and with pandemic-related embassy closures, obtaining one isn't necessarily easy).
- Someone 5y ago
  I don’t think ABN AMRO is completely fine with US customers today, given that they have an US persons disclaimer and have a phone number for questions regarding it (https://www.abnamro.nl/en/personal/specially-for/us-persons.html https://www.abnamro.nl/en/personal/specially-for/us-persons....) Problem is that FATCA requires banks to actively send the US government personal information about its customers with US citizenship, while the GDPR forbids them from doing so without consent from their customers (https://americanexpatfinance.com/tax/item/632-eu-data-protection-board-to-revisit-fatca https://americanexpatfinance.com/tax/item/632-eu-data-protec...) But yes, accidental Americans definitely are a weird case. Some of them don’t even know they have US citizenship until the IRS sends them a message, or when, upon visiting the USA, border control requires them to show a US passport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American#Awareness_of_U.S._citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American#Awareness_...)

JeromeLon 5y ago

You mentioned it. FATCA is not targeting US citizens abroad, it's targeting financial organisations who have US citizens as clients. So, many banks around the world will have "Are you a US citizen" as one of the first questions to open an account, and if the answer is yes, they will politely decline any further requests.

nickthemagicman 5y ago
Are there NO workarounds? I noticed you said 'many' and not 'all' banks. It looks like these banks work for expats. https://dutchreview.com/expat/best-banks-expats-netherlands/ https://dutchreview.com/expat/best-banks-expats-netherlands/ Something doesn't add up. From a non rich persons perspective it appears that person gave up her citizenship so she could essentially have a better selection of banks and to not have to use a VPN? It seems like a US citizenship is worth it? The actual real problems are not clear to me.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  She also wrote "Without an address in the US, I can’t open an investment account there; with US nationality, it is becoming more and more difficult to do any investment or borrowing outside of the US.". Yeah, how to remain non rich: keep your money in a savings account and not invest in stocks, etc. Want to start a business? Need a loan for that? Sorry... Also that webpage doesn't even say those banks accept American clients, "expats" don't mean American, EU freedom of movement and ease of getting work visa means there's people from all over the world in the EU, either temporarily or permanently. Addendum: I've also talked to someone who said she couldn't take some jobs because if she has access to the company's bank account, she has to report that to the IRS, maybe even the amount in that account, which of course no foreign company would volunteer unless they really have to.
- a3e3 5y ago
  That page describes the situation for expats in general. It's different for U.S. citizens. Bunq, the first bank that's listed, has special requirements: https://together.bunq.com/d/2318-why-are-there-special-regulations-for-u-s-people https://together.bunq.com/d/2318-why-are-there-special-regul... With an SSN you can open a basic checking and savings account. However, you'll be denied for any type of investments. This also means U.S. citizens can't participate in pension plans of Dutch employees. Even local crypto exchanges are refusing service: https://bitonic.nl/en/faq/33/what-is-a-us-person https://bitonic.nl/en/faq/33/what-is-a-us-person Meanwhile, banks and brokers in the U.S. require a permanent residential address. For example, Wealthfront states they don't "support clients residing outside of the U.S., including U.S. citizens residing abroad". Additionally, The Netherlands has a wealth tax. Even on unrealized gains. Each year you pay taxes on stocks you haven't sold yet. Then, when you actually do sell, you can't use the previous years of Dutch taxes that you've paid to offset the U.S. capital gains tax. It's especially complicated for so called Accidental Americans. Many of whom don't have or know their SSN. To get one you must submit your birth certificate and US passport. If you don't have those it's quite difficult to get them. When you finally obtain your SSN, renouncing is a challenge in itself. It requires filing tax returns for the past 3 years + 6 years of FBAR (you'll most likely need an accountant for this or face steep penalties), pay $2300 to renounce, and then file another tax return for the year in which you renounced.

sanedigital 5y ago

It’s clear from your response that you’re not at all familiar with the issues here. I’m a bit confused as to why you’d feel the need to share your opinion on a topic where you’re very clearly not well informed. As an American expat for five years, I can assure you her complaints are accurate. 1. Not remotely the same. As a resident of a particular state, your senators and congresspeople are certainly looking out for your state’s interests. As an expat, almost nobody cares. 2. FATCA doesn’t care how you file. If you’re married, your spouse is included. 3. Most investment banks will no longer accept expats as clients, and go so far as to monitor and close accounts for people consistently logging in from overseas. When we lived abroad we had to be very careful with VPNs, and often had our US-resident parents monitor our accounts for us just in case.

jaywalk 5y ago
>As a resident of a particular state, your senators and congresspeople are certainly looking out for your state’s interests. You've apparently forgotten a whole lot in your five years as an expat.
nickthemagicman 5y ago
> It’s clear from your response that you’re not at all familiar with the issues here Im NOT! I'm trying to understand it. It appears that she's giving up her citizenship so she doesn't have to use a VPN and has a better selection of banks and to avoid paying $1000 a year? Seems like a citizenship is worth WAY more than that! Something doesn't add up here! Or do people with a lot of money just have a lot less tolerance for inconveniences than average moneyed people?
- cheese_van 5y ago
  In many EU countries, to have a telephone line (land or mobile). The same with internet access: you must have a bank account. But most local banks do not want local US customers. It's prohibitively onerous for them. Imagine trying to establish a life without a telephone or internet.
- _g5q8 5y ago