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I can't stress how differently power works in the Southern States (EDIT: Missouri is a midwestern state officially, but I've always considered it part of the So

I can't stress how differently power works in the Southern States (EDIT: Missouri is a midwestern state officially, but I've always considered it part of the South). It's a very traditional place, where you do not dare contradict, let alone correct, your boss. There is none of this "avoid surrounding yourself with sycophants because they will only tell you what you want to hear" business. There is no upside to speaking up in meetings if what you're saying is not in direct support of the boss. If you do this, you will be branded a trouble-maker, lose favor with the hierarchy, and eventually you will be expelled. Politeness and deference matters far more than any other quality. Loyalty beats integrity every time in the south. This incident is just one example of this in action.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
The south sounds exactly like my experience in two fairly non-political (as non-political as government can be) departments of state government that provide non-controversial social services in a state in the northeast.
vram22 5y ago
Why?
jeremyjh 5y ago
Missouri is not even remotely considered to be in "the south". At least not by those who live there or in neighboring states.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Missouri is not even remotely considered to be in "the south". No, but it is both South-adjacent and is considered to be largely within the Bible Belt, which is almost exactly coextensive with the South, except that it excludes parts of Southern Florida and includes all or part of several South-adjacent states, so it's not an entirely hard fo understand mistake.
- javajosh 5y ago
  You're right! It's part of the midwest officially. Apparently it does share at least some of the classic characteristics of the southern states.
  - jeremyjh 5y ago
    I think it has no more in common with them than other non-southern red states.
  - daltont 5y ago
    University of Missouri sports teams are in the Southeastern Conference (SEC). Part of me wanted them in the Big-10 since I identify more as being from the northern mid-west. Got to follow the $$$.
- handrous 5y ago
  I know a lot of people who regard it as a hybrid southern/midwestern state. Plenty of confederate flags to be found in Missouri, certainly, and the MU/KU rivalry is, on our side at least, heavy on "bleeding Kansas" rhetoric and imagery, which keeps Missouri's Southern-sympathizing role in the war alive in our popular culture (such as it is). Lots and lots of our local icons, oft-mentioned historical figures, et c., relate back to the war, and especially folks who supported the Confederacy. County seats with those late-addition cheap confederate soldier memorial-statutes outside the courthouse are, AFAIK, quite common in the state.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    You can find Confederate flags in northern states and all over the US. That doesn't suddenly make it more "southern". I live in CO now and I see more confederate flags than I ever saw in MO.
  - jeremyjh 5y ago
    You can find racists and rebels anywhere. If you order a sweet tea in any restaurant in Missouri they will look at you like you have three heads.
    - handrous 5y ago
      Not true at all, but the sweet tea they serve you will probably be mediocre at best, that's true. A few places will serve you unsweet tea (all they have, as a cost-savings measure) with sugar packets, as if that's the same thing, which admittedly is an offense worthy of challenging your server and/or the restaurant owner to a duel.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    County seats with those late-addition cheap confederate soldier memorial-statutes outside the courthouse are, AFAIK, quite common in the state. This seems libelous. Can you provide a single example of such a statue? I drive through several county seats in Missouri multiple times a week. There are WWII and Vietnam memorials, and actually several Civil War Union memorials, but not a single confederate memorial.
smartscience 5y ago
As a species I feel we need a means to overcome this problem within organizations, and demonstrate convincingly to others that we have done so. Chernobyl and Fukushima were also both created by a culture of deference to higher-ups. The anti-nuclear crowd were wrong about the science, but may have had a point once you consider human fallibility.
- nolson 5y ago
  > Chernobyl and Fukushima were also both created by a culture of deference to higher-ups Chernobyl suffered from compounding of reactor and test design flaws and human error. Fukushima suffered from (retrospectively) insufficient risk assessments, which resulted in a design meeting a rare event beyond it design limit sooner than expected.* I'm unaware of a human society, in fact any animal society, where politeness does not involve some degree of deference. So saying these accidents were caused by a culture of deference is essentially meaningless without some more "who, what, why, how" and importantly 'how much' and 'compared to what'. From the IAEA report: "This common mode failure reached a scale considerably beyond that usually addressed in the assessment of BDBAs. [ed: beyond design basis accident]". https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/AdditionalVolumes/P1710/Pub1710-TV2-Web.pdf https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/AdditionalVol... https://www.coursera.org/lecture/intercultural-communication-russians/4-5-politeness-systems-where-do-russians-belong-ZF8gY https://www.coursera.org/lecture/intercultural-communication...
CountDrewku 5y ago
If you think that's a "southern" trait I've got news for you... This attitudes fits the majority of workplaces. I know it probably makes you feel better to pass the blame off on a specific group that you can try to avoid but I've worked all over the US and it's the same crap everywhere you go.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

The south sounds exactly like my experience in two fairly non-political (as non-political as government can be) departments of state government that provide non-controversial social services in a state in the northeast.

vram22 5y ago

Why?

jeremyjh 5y ago

Missouri is not even remotely considered to be in "the south". At least not by those who live there or in neighboring states.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Missouri is not even remotely considered to be in "the south". No, but it is both South-adjacent and is considered to be largely within the Bible Belt, which is almost exactly coextensive with the South, except that it excludes parts of Southern Florida and includes all or part of several South-adjacent states, so it's not an entirely hard fo understand mistake.
javajosh 5y ago
You're right! It's part of the midwest officially. Apparently it does share at least some of the classic characteristics of the southern states.
- jeremyjh 5y ago
  I think it has no more in common with them than other non-southern red states.
- daltont 5y ago
  University of Missouri sports teams are in the Southeastern Conference (SEC). Part of me wanted them in the Big-10 since I identify more as being from the northern mid-west. Got to follow the $$$.
handrous 5y ago
I know a lot of people who regard it as a hybrid southern/midwestern state. Plenty of confederate flags to be found in Missouri, certainly, and the MU/KU rivalry is, on our side at least, heavy on "bleeding Kansas" rhetoric and imagery, which keeps Missouri's Southern-sympathizing role in the war alive in our popular culture (such as it is). Lots and lots of our local icons, oft-mentioned historical figures, et c., relate back to the war, and especially folks who supported the Confederacy. County seats with those late-addition cheap confederate soldier memorial-statutes outside the courthouse are, AFAIK, quite common in the state.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  You can find Confederate flags in northern states and all over the US. That doesn't suddenly make it more "southern". I live in CO now and I see more confederate flags than I ever saw in MO.
- jeremyjh 5y ago
  You can find racists and rebels anywhere. If you order a sweet tea in any restaurant in Missouri they will look at you like you have three heads.
  - handrous 5y ago
    Not true at all, but the sweet tea they serve you will probably be mediocre at best, that's true. A few places will serve you unsweet tea (all they have, as a cost-savings measure) with sugar packets, as if that's the same thing, which admittedly is an offense worthy of challenging your server and/or the restaurant owner to a duel.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  County seats with those late-addition cheap confederate soldier memorial-statutes outside the courthouse are, AFAIK, quite common in the state. This seems libelous. Can you provide a single example of such a statue? I drive through several county seats in Missouri multiple times a week. There are WWII and Vietnam memorials, and actually several Civil War Union memorials, but not a single confederate memorial.

smartscience 5y ago

As a species I feel we need a means to overcome this problem within organizations, and demonstrate convincingly to others that we have done so. Chernobyl and Fukushima were also both created by a culture of deference to higher-ups. The anti-nuclear crowd were wrong about the science, but may have had a point once you consider human fallibility.

nolson 5y ago
> Chernobyl and Fukushima were also both created by a culture of deference to higher-ups Chernobyl suffered from compounding of reactor and test design flaws and human error. Fukushima suffered from (retrospectively) insufficient risk assessments, which resulted in a design meeting a rare event beyond it design limit sooner than expected.* I'm unaware of a human society, in fact any animal society, where politeness does not involve some degree of deference. So saying these accidents were caused by a culture of deference is essentially meaningless without some more "who, what, why, how" and importantly 'how much' and 'compared to what'. From the IAEA report: "This common mode failure reached a scale considerably beyond that usually addressed in the assessment of BDBAs. [ed: beyond design basis accident]". https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/AdditionalVolumes/P1710/Pub1710-TV2-Web.pdf https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/AdditionalVol... https://www.coursera.org/lecture/intercultural-communication-russians/4-5-politeness-systems-where-do-russians-belong-ZF8gY https://www.coursera.org/lecture/intercultural-communication...

CountDrewku 5y ago

If you think that's a "southern" trait I've got news for you... This attitudes fits the majority of workplaces. I know it probably makes you feel better to pass the blame off on a specific group that you can try to avoid but I've worked all over the US and it's the same crap everywhere you go.