6 ms·

Don't get me wrong - I'd expect Michelin to have done some testing to see NVH is within tolerance levels right? Airless is really close to working for bikes. I

Don't get me wrong - I'd expect Michelin to have done some testing to see NVH is within tolerance levels right? Airless is really close to working for bikes. If I were commuting on a bike now I'd be comfortable going for it. The downsides - painfully hard installation, uphill resistance, ...etc. - will be worth it.

bkanber 5y ago
Bridgestone said bike tweels were close 4 years ago, and then again 2 years ago... I won't hold my breath! :)
- 8ytecoder 5y ago
  Tannus is the leader right now. I have tried it and I'm fairly comfortable. Again, the number of flats you get in some of the cities in the Bay Area is insane. That makes it worth it.
- lost-found 5y ago
  Michelin is by far the market leader in tires, especially compared to Bridgestone.
LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
Really? There are small cans of spray which you can have easily with you. Got a flat? Look where, pull it out. Spray the foam in. Turn the wheel for a minute, look for overseen leaks, maybe, and pull stuff out of them. Turn wheel a few more times. Pump. Or use car-adapter for pump at gas station. Those stuff costs between 2 and 4€ for a can of sprayfoam, and maybe 50ct for a small adapter(sugar cube like, but cylindrical). Given the stuff Schwalbe and Continental are offering for normal bicycles, I don't get all the rage. Because a flat fixed like described above lasts about half a year, then the profile is too slick, and I change tire and tube. Works for me. Feels comfortable and fast. Is economic. YMMV.
- 8ytecoder 5y ago
  You make it sound simple. It's not when I'm commuting. Even to use the sprayfoam sealers - I need to first identify the puncture and that's not always obvious. I've usually just changed the entire tube.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
    It's my experience. In case of unidentified punctures the foam leaks out (of them), and then you can remove the splinter, or whatever by hand, maybe with a paper tissue, or tweezers from your swiss officers knife, some multitool. Dunno. I don't have that many flats. About 5 or 6 since 2005? Each one maybe a 10 to 15 minute break. edit: Thinking about it, one could even omit the spray can because in cities there's almost always a gas station near, which is stocking that stuff. So only the small adapter would be necessary, if your valves aren't like the ones for cars anyways. I didn't do that so far because I'm often bicycling out of the city, instead of into it.
- djrogers 5y ago
  The last flat I had involved a 3" split in the tube - ain't no slime/foam/spray can that's gonna fix that.
- bserge 5y ago
  I just used aramid fiber lining on the inside of my Vee Rubber tires (best stuff, fuck Conti and Schwalbe), haven't had a flat yet. Better than "puncture proof" shit from Conti. But it's probably just a matter of time before an exotically shaped piece of glass gets through :D
bkanber 5y ago
I also want to add, since this is more of a deep auto-industry thing, that NVH testing is almost like longitudinal health studies. NVH engineers actually have charts of which specific frequencies our internal organs resonate at. For a layperson it's easy to imagine that NVH testing is just a matter of setting up a dB meter and some accelerometers to make sure things aren't bouncing around too much, but it's actually much more nuanced than that, and the engineers have to consider the long-term effects of driving in the vehicle. One easy way to picture this is: recall your last long road trip, or airplane flight, anything more than 3 hours or so. You get so tired after those, especially considering that you've only just sat still for a few hours. But in actuality your body is making hundreds of tiny corrections to posture each minute, in response to the vibrations of the vehicle, and that literally exhausts your muscles and nervous system. Now imagine that you make that car "5% more harsh" and redo the road trip; you will feel the compound effects of that additional harshness. Auto manufacturers take NVH very seriously, because it turns out to be a pretty big deal. My point is that even if NVH comes back OK in the lab, they still will need a good deal of real world data with test subjects representative of the 'average driver' before they can make a determination. Edit to add: I know of at least one case where the entire drivetrain of a vehicle was redesigned due to NVH.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  And this stuff is exactly why it's a million times less fatiguing to drive a vehicle from 2020 over one from 1990, even if you control for almost every other variable by picking one that has changed minimally (i.e. a few panel vans and many medium duty trucks)
  - ycombigator 5y ago
    That's a wild over exaggeration.
- YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
  This was very cool to read; thanks for such an informative comment. I imagine this will sound naive, but I wonder why this sort of vibration can't be addressed with shock absorbers in the seats?

bkanber 5y ago

Bridgestone said bike tweels were close 4 years ago, and then again 2 years ago... I won't hold my breath! :)

8ytecoder 5y ago
Tannus is the leader right now. I have tried it and I'm fairly comfortable. Again, the number of flats you get in some of the cities in the Bay Area is insane. That makes it worth it.
lost-found 5y ago
Michelin is by far the market leader in tires, especially compared to Bridgestone.

LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago

Really? There are small cans of spray which you can have easily with you. Got a flat? Look where, pull it out. Spray the foam in. Turn the wheel for a minute, look for overseen leaks, maybe, and pull stuff out of them. Turn wheel a few more times. Pump. Or use car-adapter for pump at gas station. Those stuff costs between 2 and 4€ for a can of sprayfoam, and maybe 50ct for a small adapter(sugar cube like, but cylindrical). Given the stuff Schwalbe and Continental are offering for normal bicycles, I don't get all the rage. Because a flat fixed like described above lasts about half a year, then the profile is too slick, and I change tire and tube. Works for me. Feels comfortable and fast. Is economic. YMMV.

8ytecoder 5y ago
You make it sound simple. It's not when I'm commuting. Even to use the sprayfoam sealers - I need to first identify the puncture and that's not always obvious. I've usually just changed the entire tube.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  It's my experience. In case of unidentified punctures the foam leaks out (of them), and then you can remove the splinter, or whatever by hand, maybe with a paper tissue, or tweezers from your swiss officers knife, some multitool. Dunno. I don't have that many flats. About 5 or 6 since 2005? Each one maybe a 10 to 15 minute break. edit: Thinking about it, one could even omit the spray can because in cities there's almost always a gas station near, which is stocking that stuff. So only the small adapter would be necessary, if your valves aren't like the ones for cars anyways. I didn't do that so far because I'm often bicycling out of the city, instead of into it.
djrogers 5y ago
The last flat I had involved a 3" split in the tube - ain't no slime/foam/spray can that's gonna fix that.
bserge 5y ago
I just used aramid fiber lining on the inside of my Vee Rubber tires (best stuff, fuck Conti and Schwalbe), haven't had a flat yet. Better than "puncture proof" shit from Conti. But it's probably just a matter of time before an exotically shaped piece of glass gets through :D

bkanber 5y ago

I also want to add, since this is more of a deep auto-industry thing, that NVH testing is almost like longitudinal health studies. NVH engineers actually have charts of which specific frequencies our internal organs resonate at. For a layperson it's easy to imagine that NVH testing is just a matter of setting up a dB meter and some accelerometers to make sure things aren't bouncing around too much, but it's actually much more nuanced than that, and the engineers have to consider the long-term effects of driving in the vehicle. One easy way to picture this is: recall your last long road trip, or airplane flight, anything more than 3 hours or so. You get so tired after those, especially considering that you've only just sat still for a few hours. But in actuality your body is making hundreds of tiny corrections to posture each minute, in response to the vibrations of the vehicle, and that literally exhausts your muscles and nervous system. Now imagine that you make that car "5% more harsh" and redo the road trip; you will feel the compound effects of that additional harshness. Auto manufacturers take NVH very seriously, because it turns out to be a pretty big deal. My point is that even if NVH comes back OK in the lab, they still will need a good deal of real world data with test subjects representative of the 'average driver' before they can make a determination. Edit to add: I know of at least one case where the entire drivetrain of a vehicle was redesigned due to NVH.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
And this stuff is exactly why it's a million times less fatiguing to drive a vehicle from 2020 over one from 1990, even if you control for almost every other variable by picking one that has changed minimally (i.e. a few panel vans and many medium duty trucks)
- ycombigator 5y ago
  That's a wild over exaggeration.
YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
This was very cool to read; thanks for such an informative comment. I imagine this will sound naive, but I wonder why this sort of vibration can't be addressed with shock absorbers in the seats?