7 ms·

Cycles is good first step if Apple wants to make blender fully functional on Mac. I wonder if they'll ever attempt to port Eevee to metal, that seems like the l

by valine 5y ago

Cycles is good first step if Apple wants to make blender fully functional on Mac. I wonder if they'll ever attempt to port Eevee to metal, that seems like the logical next step if Apple wants to permanently remove OpenGL from macOS.

JAlexoid 5y ago
"Apple wants to permanently remove OpenGL from macOS" - that would be a poor decision.... although, they really don't care for the pro market in any case.
- striking 5y ago
  They've already deprecated OpenGL. Drivers on macOS are locked at OpenGL 4.1, which is missing a whole lot of nice features. Not because the hardware doesn't support them, but because Apple doesn't want to keep maintaining OpenGL. And why would they? OpenGL is really unpleasant from a hardware manufacturer's / integrator's / OS author's perspective, it makes app ports for mobile that much harder unless you're using GL ES, and Metal works and many apps have a Metal renderer now. If you find the mere idea of Metal distasteful because it's an API that can't be used on other platforms, you can use Vulkan and MoltenVK to get there. You're confusing not caring for the pro market with their approach to vertical integration. They care for the pro market, but they're not willing to compromise on ripping out what they consider to be dead weight.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    > And why would they? OpenGL is really unpleasant from a hardware manufacturer's / integrator's / OS author's perspective That's why it must be deprecated. Why do we need to reinvent the wheel over and over again ? I get it, X sucks and the answer to this is .... wayland. OpenGL sucks and the answer to this is ? DirectX ? Vulkan ? SDL ? Libcaca ? ( sorry i forgot ncurses). Just like an old builder: you have some bricks, use them.
    - viktorcode 5y ago
      Apple had their answer in form of Metal. Vulkan, DX12 came out later.
      - JAlexoid 5y ago
        If memory serves - they introduced Metal as a high efficiency low level API for games, not a generic rendering API. Deprecating opengl was confusing for me.
        user-the-name 5y ago
        No, Metal is a general purpose 3D API, and has always been. Games are just one of the biggest things 3D APIs are used for, but Metal is for all uses.
    - rudedogg 5y ago
      I've only dabbled in GPU programming, but I think the issue is more serious than this. It's not really pointless churn. OpenGL was released 29 years ago, and the way GPUs work now vs then is massive. Apparently developers want low level access, and that is what Vulkan/Metal give them. As a user I wish Vulkan had a path without so much setup. I'm not sure if that's possible, or maybe it would defeat the purpose. It seems like it would be nice for hobbyists/beginners like me who just want to get a triangle on the screen and play with shaders though.
      - JAlexoid 5y ago
        And OpenGL changed massively. Going from fixed function to programmable hardware. I understand that a lot of developers want low level access to hardware - that's great for a lot of applications. But that low level access means that software is tied to hardware... and software is not forward/cross compatible. Which is a VERY big deal for pro market. Remember when Apple just "forgot" to release a pro grade desktop for years? Do you think those pros just stayed with their outdated hardware?(they didn't, they moved to Windows) Do you think that there's a good reason for many pro software vendors to jump to Metal, when the majority of their customers are on Windows with Vulkan support? I mentioned this on another subthread - Apple just needs to offer a cross platform API, to prove that they want pro software to be developed on Macs.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    Apple could just use the vendor-provided OpenGL (AIUI most of the code is common between Windows and Linux for the major vendors), which e.g. for nvidia still happily supports everything from 1.0 to the present.
    - my123 5y ago
      > Apple could just use the vendor-provided OpenGL They are their own GPU vendor nowadays.
      - mrpippy 5y ago
        On Apple GPUs (including M1 Macs), an OpenGL->Metal layer is used.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    >You're confusing not caring for the pro market with their approach to vertical integration. Apple knows exactly what they need to do to keep the pro market on MacOSX, they are not interested in doing that at all. And that simple thing is standardization, not exclusive API. So they don't even have to support OpenGL... just not make it even harder for CAD/CAM makers to port their software/features back to MacOSX. Lack of a good pro device for years already got a lot of pros off Macs, so companies like Autodesk have less and less value in supporting Mac. And the gap in functionality is already massive! Their vertical integration, aka platform lock-in, is impossible for companies that have majority of their customers on a different platform.(and again - Apple knows that) You know, I'll just switch to Windows to have my designs automatically validated for code compliance... and I'll just stay with Windows for software development as well. (I'm a software engineer studying structural engineering)
    - samhw 5y ago
      > already got a lot of pros off Macs What is your quantitative evidence for saying this?
      - JAlexoid 5y ago
        Opinion and personal experience.
  - criddell 5y ago
    Are there Metal compatible renderers on non-Apple platforms?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - phkahler 5y ago
    >> And why would they? OpenGL is really unpleasant from a hardware manufacturer's / integrator's / OS author's perspective That's exactly why they should keep it. Now all those CAD programs that use older OpenGL features have to figure out how to do things that are not supported by Metal. Vulkan initially forgot about this market as well and had to add some things back in. There is Zink to handle compatibility, but that should have come from the organizations and companied deprecating OpenGL. It should probably be standard on new platforms so they can keep OpenGL at the API level.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Except some of those CAD programs already support Metal. > To prepare for future Mac OS changes, AutoCAD 2021 for Mac uses a new graphics engine: Metal. https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad-for-mac/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2021/ENU/AutoCAD-MAC-WhatsNew/files/GUID-5A74F2CE-1895-4025-9C47-9E0E25368DCE-htm.html https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad-for-mac/learn...
- pjmlp 5y ago
  The pro market that matters has already added Metal support long time ago.
kitsunesoba 5y ago
Blender’s UI would also need to be ported to Metal, as that’s currently OpenGL if I’m not mistaken.
- hallarempt 5y ago
  Everything Blender shows on screen is rendered using OpenGL.
outworlder 5y ago
> that seems like the logical next step if Apple wants to permanently remove OpenGL from macOS They should just allow third-party OpenGL implementations. OpenGL on OSX is stuck in the past. It would be great to see Metal die a fiery death too, and Vulkan being adopted. The current situation is just DirectX once again.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  "Allow"? They aren't doing anything to disallow them? You can use ANGLE if you want, for instance? I wouldn't recommend using OpenGL for any new software, though, it is hopelessly clunky and outdated for modern applications.

by valine 5y ago

JAlexoid 5y ago

"Apple wants to permanently remove OpenGL from macOS" - that would be a poor decision.... although, they really don't care for the pro market in any case.

striking 5y ago
They've already deprecated OpenGL. Drivers on macOS are locked at OpenGL 4.1, which is missing a whole lot of nice features. Not because the hardware doesn't support them, but because Apple doesn't want to keep maintaining OpenGL. And why would they? OpenGL is really unpleasant from a hardware manufacturer's / integrator's / OS author's perspective, it makes app ports for mobile that much harder unless you're using GL ES, and Metal works and many apps have a Metal renderer now. If you find the mere idea of Metal distasteful because it's an API that can't be used on other platforms, you can use Vulkan and MoltenVK to get there. You're confusing not caring for the pro market with their approach to vertical integration. They care for the pro market, but they're not willing to compromise on ripping out what they consider to be dead weight.
- hulitu 5y ago
  > And why would they? OpenGL is really unpleasant from a hardware manufacturer's / integrator's / OS author's perspective That's why it must be deprecated. Why do we need to reinvent the wheel over and over again ? I get it, X sucks and the answer to this is .... wayland. OpenGL sucks and the answer to this is ? DirectX ? Vulkan ? SDL ? Libcaca ? ( sorry i forgot ncurses). Just like an old builder: you have some bricks, use them.
  - viktorcode 5y ago
    Apple had their answer in form of Metal. Vulkan, DX12 came out later.
    - JAlexoid 5y ago
      If memory serves - they introduced Metal as a high efficiency low level API for games, not a generic rendering API. Deprecating opengl was confusing for me.
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        No, Metal is a general purpose 3D API, and has always been. Games are just one of the biggest things 3D APIs are used for, but Metal is for all uses.
  - rudedogg 5y ago
    I've only dabbled in GPU programming, but I think the issue is more serious than this. It's not really pointless churn. OpenGL was released 29 years ago, and the way GPUs work now vs then is massive. Apparently developers want low level access, and that is what Vulkan/Metal give them. As a user I wish Vulkan had a path without so much setup. I'm not sure if that's possible, or maybe it would defeat the purpose. It seems like it would be nice for hobbyists/beginners like me who just want to get a triangle on the screen and play with shaders though.
    - JAlexoid 5y ago
      And OpenGL changed massively. Going from fixed function to programmable hardware. I understand that a lot of developers want low level access to hardware - that's great for a lot of applications. But that low level access means that software is tied to hardware... and software is not forward/cross compatible. Which is a VERY big deal for pro market. Remember when Apple just "forgot" to release a pro grade desktop for years? Do you think those pros just stayed with their outdated hardware?(they didn't, they moved to Windows) Do you think that there's a good reason for many pro software vendors to jump to Metal, when the majority of their customers are on Windows with Vulkan support? I mentioned this on another subthread - Apple just needs to offer a cross platform API, to prove that they want pro software to be developed on Macs.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Apple could just use the vendor-provided OpenGL (AIUI most of the code is common between Windows and Linux for the major vendors), which e.g. for nvidia still happily supports everything from 1.0 to the present.
  - my123 5y ago
    > Apple could just use the vendor-provided OpenGL They are their own GPU vendor nowadays.
    - mrpippy 5y ago
      On Apple GPUs (including M1 Macs), an OpenGL->Metal layer is used.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  >You're confusing not caring for the pro market with their approach to vertical integration. Apple knows exactly what they need to do to keep the pro market on MacOSX, they are not interested in doing that at all. And that simple thing is standardization, not exclusive API. So they don't even have to support OpenGL... just not make it even harder for CAD/CAM makers to port their software/features back to MacOSX. Lack of a good pro device for years already got a lot of pros off Macs, so companies like Autodesk have less and less value in supporting Mac. And the gap in functionality is already massive! Their vertical integration, aka platform lock-in, is impossible for companies that have majority of their customers on a different platform.(and again - Apple knows that) You know, I'll just switch to Windows to have my designs automatically validated for code compliance... and I'll just stay with Windows for software development as well. (I'm a software engineer studying structural engineering)
  - samhw 5y ago
    > already got a lot of pros off Macs What is your quantitative evidence for saying this?
    - JAlexoid 5y ago
      Opinion and personal experience.
- criddell 5y ago
  Are there Metal compatible renderers on non-Apple platforms?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- phkahler 5y ago
  >> And why would they? OpenGL is really unpleasant from a hardware manufacturer's / integrator's / OS author's perspective That's exactly why they should keep it. Now all those CAD programs that use older OpenGL features have to figure out how to do things that are not supported by Metal. Vulkan initially forgot about this market as well and had to add some things back in. There is Zink to handle compatibility, but that should have come from the organizations and companied deprecating OpenGL. It should probably be standard on new platforms so they can keep OpenGL at the API level.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Except some of those CAD programs already support Metal. > To prepare for future Mac OS changes, AutoCAD 2021 for Mac uses a new graphics engine: Metal. https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad-for-mac/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2021/ENU/AutoCAD-MAC-WhatsNew/files/GUID-5A74F2CE-1895-4025-9C47-9E0E25368DCE-htm.html https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad-for-mac/learn...
pjmlp 5y ago
The pro market that matters has already added Metal support long time ago.

kitsunesoba 5y ago

Blender’s UI would also need to be ported to Metal, as that’s currently OpenGL if I’m not mistaken.

hallarempt 5y ago
Everything Blender shows on screen is rendered using OpenGL.

outworlder 5y ago

> that seems like the logical next step if Apple wants to permanently remove OpenGL from macOS They should just allow third-party OpenGL implementations. OpenGL on OSX is stuck in the past. It would be great to see Metal die a fiery death too, and Vulkan being adopted. The current situation is just DirectX once again.

user-the-name 5y ago
"Allow"? They aren't doing anything to disallow them? You can use ANGLE if you want, for instance? I wouldn't recommend using OpenGL for any new software, though, it is hopelessly clunky and outdated for modern applications.