5 ms·

I think we mean different things when we use the words "Buddhism"and "dogmatic". I'll leave it at that.

by itisit 5y ago

joeberon 5y ago
dogmatic: > inclined to lay down principles as undeniably true. dogma: > a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. Buddhism: > a widespread Asian religion or philosophy, founded by Siddartha Gautama in north-eastern India in the 5th century BC. These are the definitions I'm using
joeberon 5y ago
Amazingly you are demonstrating the exact racism and colonialist ignorance that I am arguing against in the original post. It is actively erasing traditional Buddhist voices, people who have actually studied Buddhism instead of projecting their idea of what Buddhism is onto it. Have you studied Buddhism? Which texts have you read? Which Buddhist concepts have you learnt about? Many people who profess to know what Buddhism really is truthfully answer: no, none, none. The best way is to just show someone a morally disagreeable teaching to progressives, like for example how the Buddha said that poor people are poor because in a previous life they stole, or that abortion will send you to hell, or that by letting women join the sangha the lifespan of the Dhamma is reduced from 1000 years to 500 years. Or just show them just how much rebirth and karma is in basically almost every sutta. That usually shocks them out of their absolute stupidity and ignorance.
- bmh100 5y ago
  No one owns any religion, not even the Pope or the Dalai Lama. There is no "territory" to "colonize", and I haven't seen any evidence of racial superiority being a motivation. People develop their own belief systems over time. Did Gautama Buddha erase traditional Hindu voices when he spread his new religion in India? Was Gautama Buddha motivated by a feeling that his Nepal race was superior to the Hindu Indo-Aryans? Did Gautama Buddha seek to "colonize" the Indian subcontinent somehow?
  - joeberon 5y ago
    We have lots of resources over at /r/GoldenSwastika https://www.reddit.com/r/GoldenSwastika/wiki/misconceptions https://www.reddit.com/r/GoldenSwastika/wiki/misconceptions I will not stop until we've erased secular voices from Buddhist spaces
    - JasonFruit 5y ago
      It sounds like you've defined "Buddhist spaces" in a way that's excluded secular voices pretty effectively. Why is it necessary to exclude secular voices from all "Buddhist" spaces, instead of just your Buddhist spaces?
      - joeberon 5y ago
        Because it is directly oppressing Asian Buddhist voices in the west
        JasonFruit 5y ago
        I really am trying to understand here — I'm not Buddhist, but I'm interested in your reasoning. It looks to me like a large portion of American Buddhism is not really that interested in the traditional Asian form of Buddhism, but instead in a form that's heavily influenced by secular Jewish ideas. If people simply prefer that approach, but traditional Asian Buddhism is embraced in your spaces, isn't "erasing secular voices from Buddhist spaces" in general more oppressive, not less? After all, people are free to pursue your preferred strain of Buddhism if they prefer, just like you. Maybe I'm missing some pressures that you're not expressing.
        joeberon 5y ago
        > It looks to me like a large portion of American Buddhism is not really that interested in the traditional Asian form of Buddhism, but instead in a form that's heavily influenced by secular Jewish ideas No idea, I don't know anything about Judaism. > If people simply prefer that approach, but traditional Asian Buddhism is embraced in your spaces, isn't "erasing secular voices from Buddhist spaces" in general more oppressive, not less? No, because the Asian spaces are also being influenced by the enroaching of Western secular ideas. For example, Zen in the US is highly secularised, even though it is a traditional form of Buddhism. Thich Nhat Hanh teaches secular ideas to westerners but in vietnamese he is totally traditional and spiritual. Spaces where Asian or traditional Buddhists can practise are shrinking because of this. Many traditional sanghas and temples are shutting down, and many secular institutions are popping up. The secular ideas influence the Asian Americans, causing the decline and defacing of traditional Buddhism. This is why we have so many threads a day on /r/Buddhism calling out secular Buddhists, and it's honestly probably the biggest "battle" in Buddhism online today. For me personally: my Zen teacher was quite unhappy with me for holding traditional Buddhist ideas, to the point where it felt like he didn't want me to be his student at all.
- magusdei 5y ago
  "Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!' "Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish." -- Viggahika Sutta, SN 56.9
  - joeberon 5y ago
    I don't follow the śrāvaka path
    - magusdei 5y ago
      Then, would you say your actions are in line with the compassionate awareness of bodhicitta?
      - joeberon 5y ago
        No, but I didn't say I was a good practitioner. That's why I practise for a rebirth in Amitabha's Pure Land. My feelings come from a place of hate and malice, but also compassion for the Asian Buddhists who tell me every single day how they feel their religion is being defaced.
        magusdei 5y ago
        Your feelings are understandable, but I'd say you will be more effective in actually helping people if you manage to develop compassion even towards people who seem hate-worthy. I wish you continued success in your practice.

I think we mean different things when we use the words "Buddhism"and "dogmatic". I'll leave it at that.

by itisit 5y ago

I think we mean different things when we use the words "Buddhism"and "dogmatic". I'll leave it at that.

dogmatic: > inclined to lay down principles as undeniably true. dogma: > a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. Buddhism: > a widespread Asian religion or philosophy, founded by Siddartha Gautama in north-eastern India in the 5th century BC. These are the definitions I'm using

joeberon 5y ago

Amazingly you are demonstrating the exact racism and colonialist ignorance that I am arguing against in the original post. It is actively erasing traditional Buddhist voices, people who have actually studied Buddhism instead of projecting their idea of what Buddhism is onto it. Have you studied Buddhism? Which texts have you read? Which Buddhist concepts have you learnt about? Many people who profess to know what Buddhism really is truthfully answer: no, none, none. The best way is to just show someone a morally disagreeable teaching to progressives, like for example how the Buddha said that poor people are poor because in a previous life they stole, or that abortion will send you to hell, or that by letting women join the sangha the lifespan of the Dhamma is reduced from 1000 years to 500 years. Or just show them just how much rebirth and karma is in basically almost every sutta. That usually shocks them out of their absolute stupidity and ignorance.

bmh100 5y ago
No one owns any religion, not even the Pope or the Dalai Lama. There is no "territory" to "colonize", and I haven't seen any evidence of racial superiority being a motivation. People develop their own belief systems over time. Did Gautama Buddha erase traditional Hindu voices when he spread his new religion in India? Was Gautama Buddha motivated by a feeling that his Nepal race was superior to the Hindu Indo-Aryans? Did Gautama Buddha seek to "colonize" the Indian subcontinent somehow?
- joeberon 5y ago
  We have lots of resources over at /r/GoldenSwastika https://www.reddit.com/r/GoldenSwastika/wiki/misconceptions https://www.reddit.com/r/GoldenSwastika/wiki/misconceptions I will not stop until we've erased secular voices from Buddhist spaces
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    It sounds like you've defined "Buddhist spaces" in a way that's excluded secular voices pretty effectively. Why is it necessary to exclude secular voices from all "Buddhist" spaces, instead of just your Buddhist spaces?
    - joeberon 5y ago
      Because it is directly oppressing Asian Buddhist voices in the west
      - JasonFruit 5y ago
        I really am trying to understand here — I'm not Buddhist, but I'm interested in your reasoning. It looks to me like a large portion of American Buddhism is not really that interested in the traditional Asian form of Buddhism, but instead in a form that's heavily influenced by secular Jewish ideas. If people simply prefer that approach, but traditional Asian Buddhism is embraced in your spaces, isn't "erasing secular voices from Buddhist spaces" in general more oppressive, not less? After all, people are free to pursue your preferred strain of Buddhism if they prefer, just like you. Maybe I'm missing some pressures that you're not expressing.
        joeberon 5y ago
        > It looks to me like a large portion of American Buddhism is not really that interested in the traditional Asian form of Buddhism, but instead in a form that's heavily influenced by secular Jewish ideas No idea, I don't know anything about Judaism. > If people simply prefer that approach, but traditional Asian Buddhism is embraced in your spaces, isn't "erasing secular voices from Buddhist spaces" in general more oppressive, not less? No, because the Asian spaces are also being influenced by the enroaching of Western secular ideas. For example, Zen in the US is highly secularised, even though it is a traditional form of Buddhism. Thich Nhat Hanh teaches secular ideas to westerners but in vietnamese he is totally traditional and spiritual. Spaces where Asian or traditional Buddhists can practise are shrinking because of this. Many traditional sanghas and temples are shutting down, and many secular institutions are popping up. The secular ideas influence the Asian Americans, causing the decline and defacing of traditional Buddhism. This is why we have so many threads a day on /r/Buddhism calling out secular Buddhists, and it's honestly probably the biggest "battle" in Buddhism online today. For me personally: my Zen teacher was quite unhappy with me for holding traditional Buddhist ideas, to the point where it felt like he didn't want me to be his student at all.
magusdei 5y ago
"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!' "Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish." -- Viggahika Sutta, SN 56.9
- joeberon 5y ago
  I don't follow the śrāvaka path
  - magusdei 5y ago
    Then, would you say your actions are in line with the compassionate awareness of bodhicitta?
    - joeberon 5y ago
      No, but I didn't say I was a good practitioner. That's why I practise for a rebirth in Amitabha's Pure Land. My feelings come from a place of hate and malice, but also compassion for the Asian Buddhists who tell me every single day how they feel their religion is being defaced.
      - magusdei 5y ago
        Your feelings are understandable, but I'd say you will be more effective in actually helping people if you manage to develop compassion even towards people who seem hate-worthy. I wish you continued success in your practice.