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It's still utterly unbelievable to me that the CCP has enough power to disappear a man worth $60,000,000,000 +/- a few. If there was any further indication tha

It's still utterly unbelievable to me that the CCP has enough power to disappear a man worth $60,000,000,000 +/- a few. If there was any further indication that a group of people needed to all band together and overthrow their government, you'd think that'd be it, but I guess some people just love living in near slavery.

refenestrator 5y ago
Band together to protect the billionaires? Could you pick a less sympathetic reason?
thatguy0900 5y ago
There's a lot of people in the US clamoring for the government to reign in or eliminate our billionaires. Chinese probably view it as a feature that the government is not intimidated by them, unlike u.s. Agencies who have to kindly ask Elon not to make them look pathetic and toothless on Twitter every once in a while.
- lanevorockz 5y ago
  US agencies are definitely not toothless, full autonomy to act as they wish since the first Patriot act. Most annoyingly, no one managed to remove those powers.
  - MonkeyClub 5y ago
    > Most annoyingly, no one managed to remove those powers. Or not renew them, each September since 2001, like clockwork. The ongoing state of emergency enables such otherwise temporary powers.
    - atatatat 5y ago
      https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/yes-section-215-expired-now-what https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/yes-section-215-expire...
- mandeepj 5y ago
  > u.s. Agencies who have to kindly ask Elon not to make them look pathetic and toothless on Twitter every once in a while source?
- flyingchipmann 5y ago
  Well the problem is the definition of `Billionaires`. China's model is closer to typical corrupt authoritarian states like Russia where the government officials are the Real Billionaires. They have real power and capitals over those people like Jack Ma. They just need to move a finger and you will see the transfer of the capital. The billionaires are never eliminated. Just money change hands. It's just that they are just less exposed in the global media, even as a forbidden topic in China's media. It's not hard to imagine how rich Xi actually is, he is basically Putin. So when we are on the topic of `eliminate billionaires`, especially in the context in the country like China, the question becomes: which billionaires? ;)
  - naveen99 5y ago
    Incidentally, this is the reason that self custody of wealth (power) that bitcoin enables anonymously is important. In a ww3, the us could simply take out the ccp leadership. But in a decentralized capitalistic society run by anonymous bitcoin trillionaires, you couldn’t even find who to attack. While the trillionaires would continue to be able to execute their tasks under the rules of economics.
    - malermeister 5y ago
      A capitalist society run by anonymous bitcoin trillionaires sounds like the worst kind of dystopia imaginable.
      - Darmody 5y ago
        Also the bitcoin trillionaires would control the whole network. So not a real decentralization.
lanevorockz 5y ago
The way China works, Jack Ma doesn’t have full autonomy over his company or his money. Just thought about highlighting that.
preach 5y ago
> If there was any further indication that a group of people needed to all band together and overthrow their government, you'd think that'd be it, but I guess some people just love living in near slavery. Which people? What if the majority agrees with this move but they won’t speak out in public about it? I for one am perfectly fine with China being able to do this. It would, at the very least, keep Zuckerberg and others in check. The anti-China rhetoric on HN is mind boggling sometimes when it’s put next to the constant stream of complaints in the West, regarding inflation/monetary handouts, zoning laws, corruption, real estate, oil spills and companies getting away with shit, etc. The list is endless. And yet, you’ve accomplished nothing. In fact, things are now worse than they were and yet you just keep complaining thinking it will make a difference. You’ll never get anywhere complaining without having a path to act. China, evil it may be, actually acts. Go and call your congresspeople. They’ll listen to you over the sound of money that is pouring their way to look the other way.
- sumedh 5y ago
  > I for one am perfectly fine with China being able to do this. If you are fine when the govt kidnaps a billionaire then what makes you think you will be safe?
  - preach 5y ago
    You think there’s a safe place somewhere in this world for you? Oh boy.
    - sumedh 5y ago
      Which US billionaires has the US govt kidnapped?
  - jesterson 5y ago
    You must be very naive thinking any other government can't kidnap anyone. Think of Assange - perfect illustration of what "free" western governments can do. I'm not a fan of CCP in any way but I find naivety of HN commenters speaking about China and CCP here very amusing.
malermeister 5y ago
I'd be more worried about the actual wage slavery [1] inflicted by the billionaire in question. The government as the arm of the people putting an end to this is a good thing. Why would people want to overthrow their government because it put an end to exploitation? [1] https://fortune.com/2019/04/12/china-996-jack-ma/ https://fortune.com/2019/04/12/china-996-jack-ma/
- mherrmann 5y ago
  > Why would people want to overthrow their government because it put an end to exploitation? Maybe because disappearing people does not exactly make you feel safe in a country? Maybe because there should be a check on the power that does such things?
  - malermeister 5y ago
    The check is "don't be a billionaire that's built his wealth on exploiting others and brags about it". I feel pretty safe with that in place. Plus, it's not like the US doesn't disappear people [1], they just wouldn't dare do it to an oligarch. [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us...
    - mherrmann 5y ago
      > The check is don't be a billionaire Tell that to the millions of Uyghurs.
      - malermeister 5y ago
        [citation needed] And no, Adrian Zenz, a religious extremist who claimed he is "led by god" on a "mission" against communist China, does not count as a trustworthy source.
        mherrmann 5y ago
sneak 5y ago
The US spends Jeff Bezos' entire net worth on its military alone every 90 days. The US military has burned up over 4x Apple's entire market cap in the time since the iPhone was introduced in 2008, and this is just one part of the government in one country (where only 1/20th of humans live). The wealth and power of individuals and private corporations is absolutely trivial compared to that of governments. Hundreds of billions is pocket change to the state. They own the arena in which the game is played. They legitimately operate the databases that track the value of money, and run the printers that produce more. There is no practical amount of wealth that brings a private citizen's stature into the same realm.
- helloworld11 5y ago
  Your point is also interesting in how it interacts with a common complaint in activist media, mainstream media and right here on HN frequently: People heavily and often complain about tax evasion by private wealthy individuals due to the financial power it gives them, but rarely mention the immense power that major states already have, tax evasion losses or no, to control narratives for billions of people. More argument should be devoted to the question of just how much money the state should be spending and how from the funds it already collects. This is more important than painting every major case of tax evasion as a crushing loss for governments whose existing budgets are astronomical and already and frequently used in incredibly wasteful ways.
  - novok 5y ago
    Its a pretty common conservative talking point and has been for quite a while. It's half of the republican party's external marketing at times, even though they actually act differently.
    - helloworld11 5y ago
      This doesn't at all make it invalid as a point to consider.
onetimemanytime 5y ago
Maybe he hasn't been in public due to working 996 https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-china/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-chin... ? Ma etc have bought properties and have cash /shares stashed outside China, I'm sure. But deciding to pull the trigger is tricky. If he gets caught, he's dead. He's probably being tailed by secret services, maybe even his inner circle reports on him.
- truetraveller 5y ago
  Wow, the perils of being a billionnaire. Sometimes us commoners take being "average" for granted.
ashwagary 5y ago
Is it possible that embarrassment keeps him out of public light more than some sinister plot? You seem to assume that Ma not living in front of the camera anymore isn't his own choice. If I was penalized by my home country, I personally would not want to put myself in front of domestic media or foreign media with a political axe to grind.
jacquesm 5y ago
It would be more ubelievable to me if any citizen of any country managed to fight their government to a draw or even a loss for the government no matter how much money they have. The balance of power is so skewed towards the government that the CCP can do this any day of the week without slowing down.

refenestrator 5y ago

Band together to protect the billionaires? Could you pick a less sympathetic reason?

thatguy0900 5y ago

There's a lot of people in the US clamoring for the government to reign in or eliminate our billionaires. Chinese probably view it as a feature that the government is not intimidated by them, unlike u.s. Agencies who have to kindly ask Elon not to make them look pathetic and toothless on Twitter every once in a while.

lanevorockz 5y ago
US agencies are definitely not toothless, full autonomy to act as they wish since the first Patriot act. Most annoyingly, no one managed to remove those powers.
- MonkeyClub 5y ago
  > Most annoyingly, no one managed to remove those powers. Or not renew them, each September since 2001, like clockwork. The ongoing state of emergency enables such otherwise temporary powers.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/yes-section-215-expired-now-what https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/yes-section-215-expire...
mandeepj 5y ago
> u.s. Agencies who have to kindly ask Elon not to make them look pathetic and toothless on Twitter every once in a while source?
flyingchipmann 5y ago
Well the problem is the definition of `Billionaires`. China's model is closer to typical corrupt authoritarian states like Russia where the government officials are the Real Billionaires. They have real power and capitals over those people like Jack Ma. They just need to move a finger and you will see the transfer of the capital. The billionaires are never eliminated. Just money change hands. It's just that they are just less exposed in the global media, even as a forbidden topic in China's media. It's not hard to imagine how rich Xi actually is, he is basically Putin. So when we are on the topic of `eliminate billionaires`, especially in the context in the country like China, the question becomes: which billionaires? ;)
- naveen99 5y ago
  Incidentally, this is the reason that self custody of wealth (power) that bitcoin enables anonymously is important. In a ww3, the us could simply take out the ccp leadership. But in a decentralized capitalistic society run by anonymous bitcoin trillionaires, you couldn’t even find who to attack. While the trillionaires would continue to be able to execute their tasks under the rules of economics.
  - malermeister 5y ago
    A capitalist society run by anonymous bitcoin trillionaires sounds like the worst kind of dystopia imaginable.
    - Darmody 5y ago
      Also the bitcoin trillionaires would control the whole network. So not a real decentralization.

lanevorockz 5y ago

The way China works, Jack Ma doesn’t have full autonomy over his company or his money. Just thought about highlighting that.

preach 5y ago

> If there was any further indication that a group of people needed to all band together and overthrow their government, you'd think that'd be it, but I guess some people just love living in near slavery. Which people? What if the majority agrees with this move but they won’t speak out in public about it? I for one am perfectly fine with China being able to do this. It would, at the very least, keep Zuckerberg and others in check. The anti-China rhetoric on HN is mind boggling sometimes when it’s put next to the constant stream of complaints in the West, regarding inflation/monetary handouts, zoning laws, corruption, real estate, oil spills and companies getting away with shit, etc. The list is endless. And yet, you’ve accomplished nothing. In fact, things are now worse than they were and yet you just keep complaining thinking it will make a difference. You’ll never get anywhere complaining without having a path to act. China, evil it may be, actually acts. Go and call your congresspeople. They’ll listen to you over the sound of money that is pouring their way to look the other way.

sumedh 5y ago
> I for one am perfectly fine with China being able to do this. If you are fine when the govt kidnaps a billionaire then what makes you think you will be safe?
- preach 5y ago
  You think there’s a safe place somewhere in this world for you? Oh boy.
  - sumedh 5y ago
    Which US billionaires has the US govt kidnapped?
- jesterson 5y ago
  You must be very naive thinking any other government can't kidnap anyone. Think of Assange - perfect illustration of what "free" western governments can do. I'm not a fan of CCP in any way but I find naivety of HN commenters speaking about China and CCP here very amusing.

malermeister 5y ago

I'd be more worried about the actual wage slavery [1] inflicted by the billionaire in question. The government as the arm of the people putting an end to this is a good thing. Why would people want to overthrow their government because it put an end to exploitation? [1] https://fortune.com/2019/04/12/china-996-jack-ma/ https://fortune.com/2019/04/12/china-996-jack-ma/

mherrmann 5y ago
> Why would people want to overthrow their government because it put an end to exploitation? Maybe because disappearing people does not exactly make you feel safe in a country? Maybe because there should be a check on the power that does such things?
- malermeister 5y ago
  The check is "don't be a billionaire that's built his wealth on exploiting others and brags about it". I feel pretty safe with that in place. Plus, it's not like the US doesn't disappear people [1], they just wouldn't dare do it to an oligarch. [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us...
  - mherrmann 5y ago
    > The check is don't be a billionaire Tell that to the millions of Uyghurs.
    - malermeister 5y ago
      [citation needed] And no, Adrian Zenz, a religious extremist who claimed he is "led by god" on a "mission" against communist China, does not count as a trustworthy source.
      - mherrmann 5y ago

sneak 5y ago

The US spends Jeff Bezos' entire net worth on its military alone every 90 days. The US military has burned up over 4x Apple's entire market cap in the time since the iPhone was introduced in 2008, and this is just one part of the government in one country (where only 1/20th of humans live). The wealth and power of individuals and private corporations is absolutely trivial compared to that of governments. Hundreds of billions is pocket change to the state. They own the arena in which the game is played. They legitimately operate the databases that track the value of money, and run the printers that produce more. There is no practical amount of wealth that brings a private citizen's stature into the same realm.

helloworld11 5y ago
Your point is also interesting in how it interacts with a common complaint in activist media, mainstream media and right here on HN frequently: People heavily and often complain about tax evasion by private wealthy individuals due to the financial power it gives them, but rarely mention the immense power that major states already have, tax evasion losses or no, to control narratives for billions of people. More argument should be devoted to the question of just how much money the state should be spending and how from the funds it already collects. This is more important than painting every major case of tax evasion as a crushing loss for governments whose existing budgets are astronomical and already and frequently used in incredibly wasteful ways.
- novok 5y ago
  Its a pretty common conservative talking point and has been for quite a while. It's half of the republican party's external marketing at times, even though they actually act differently.
  - helloworld11 5y ago
    This doesn't at all make it invalid as a point to consider.

onetimemanytime 5y ago

Maybe he hasn't been in public due to working 996 https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-china/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-chin... ? Ma etc have bought properties and have cash /shares stashed outside China, I'm sure. But deciding to pull the trigger is tricky. If he gets caught, he's dead. He's probably being tailed by secret services, maybe even his inner circle reports on him.

truetraveller 5y ago
Wow, the perils of being a billionnaire. Sometimes us commoners take being "average" for granted.

ashwagary 5y ago

Is it possible that embarrassment keeps him out of public light more than some sinister plot? You seem to assume that Ma not living in front of the camera anymore isn't his own choice. If I was penalized by my home country, I personally would not want to put myself in front of domestic media or foreign media with a political axe to grind.

jacquesm 5y ago

It would be more ubelievable to me if any citizen of any country managed to fight their government to a draw or even a loss for the government no matter how much money they have. The balance of power is so skewed towards the government that the CCP can do this any day of the week without slowing down.