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Elizabeth I (7 September 1533 – 24 March 1603)[a] was Queen of England and Ireland from 17 November 1558 until her death in 1603. Sometimes called the Virgin Qu

by adolph 5y ago

Elizabeth I (7 September 1533 – 24 March 1603)[a] was Queen of England and Ireland from 17 November 1558 until her death in 1603. Sometimes called the Virgin Queen, Gloriana or Good Queen Bess, Elizabeth was the last of the five monarchs of the House of Tudor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_I To 21st-century eyes, [court astrologer John] Dee's activities straddle magic and modern science, but the distinction would have meant nothing to him. He was invited to lecture on Euclidean geometry at the University of Paris while still in his early twenties. He was an ardent promoter of mathematics, a respected astronomer and a leading expert in navigation, who trained many who would conduct England's voyages of discovery. Meanwhile, he immersed himself in sorcery, astrology and Hermetic philosophy. Much effort in his last 30 years went into trying to commune with angels, so as to learn the universal language of creation and achieve a pre-apocalyptic unity of mankind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dee

FredPret 5y ago
If you fully believe in the Biblical God, that behaviour kind of makes sense
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure that the Bible portrays "a pre-apocalyptic unity of mankind" as being a desirable or achievable goal.
  - nwatson 5y ago
    I agree, but the recently rising "Seven Mountains Mandate" sub-section of Evangelicals think otherwise, and are convinced their job is do dominate the seven areas of human culture and "bring heaven to earth", and part of that is to unify humankind under a not-so-tolerant theocracy. A portion of them also are into dreams and visions as a means to new revelation, and are largely Q-inspired and conspiracy-minded as well.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  If you fully believe in the Biblical God, then both sorcery and astrology are forbidden, IIRC.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Fezzik 5y ago
    According to the Bible witchcraft/sorcery is 1) real and 2) punishable by death: ‘Thou shalt not suffer a witch (sorceress) to live.’ Exodus 22:18. Sorcery and astrology are certainly frowned upon: ‘The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so.’ Deuteronomy 18:9-14.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      Ex 22:18, as I understand specifically (in the original text not the English translations) uses a term that refers specifically to a woman who casts evil spells (which is pretty close to the common understanding of “witch” but not with the more general interpretation you have imposed on it.) The OT, as I further understand, contains a number of different prohibitions of very specific magical practices in the source language, most of which are highly genericized in most English translations. (There's also a specific enumeration of the parts of the Jewish law that remain in force for Christians in Acts 15, and most of the probibitions under discussion here don't fall within its scope.)
      - bobthechef 5y ago
        Whether there is an explicit biblical condemnation (I don't know, but I would be surprised if there weren't) is not relevant, at least not to a Catholic. Sola scriptura is the province of Protestants.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        Add Isaiah 8:19-22 to the mix. It pretty clearly condemns consulting spiritists and mediums. (Depending on your definition of the English word "sorcery", that may count.)
- as300 5y ago
  Sure, but didn't pretty much every English person those days? I feel the real interesting point is that he was interested in the unknown, and back in those days they didn't have the modern distinctions between what we now consider as natural and supernatural. Seems that if you want to make progress in human knowledge, you assume the risk of doing things that appear frivolous or just stupid in hindsight.
  - neaden 5y ago
    Reminds me of Jack Parsons, one of the most influential rocket scientists and co-founder of Jet Propulsion Labs and committed Thelemite occultist. Or John Murray Spear, a clergyman from the 1800s who campaigned for women's equality, rights for workers, abolition, and getting rid of the death penalty. He also believed he was talking to Ben Franklin's ghost and tried to build what was essentially a robot Jesus.
    - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
      >tried to build what was essentially a robot Jesus Lol! I had to look this up, and indeed it’s true: http://www.danbaines.com/blog/tag/New+Motive+Power http://www.danbaines.com/blog/tag/New+Motive+Power
    - tkgally 5y ago
      And Isaac Newton: “English physicist and mathematician Isaac Newton produced works exploring chronology, and biblical interpretation (especially of the Apocalypse), and alchemy. Some of this could be considered occult. Also, Newton described himself as a ‘natural philosopher’, and his work is grounded in Aristotelian metaphysics. Newton’s scientific work may have been of lesser personal importance to him, as he placed emphasis on rediscovering the wisdom of the ancients. In this sense, some historians, including economist John Maynard Keynes, believe that any reference to a ‘Newtonian Worldview’ as being purely mechanical in nature is somewhat inaccurate.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studie...
      - 5y ago
- bobthechef 5y ago
  I don't see how you could have possibly come to that conclusion. At all. Superstition and the occult have always been condemned by the Church as irrational and immoral[0]. This sounds like one of those vague anti-Christian sentiments from the Enlightenment that somehow remains fashionable to this day. In spirit, modern science is closer to the occult in the sense that mastery over nature is a major motivation for its pursuit. [0] https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14339a.htm https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14339a.htm
ctoth 5y ago
This guy is incredibly interesting! I really liked the book John Dee and the Empire of Angels: Enochian Magick and the Occult Roots of the Modern World[0] which explores his life, contributions to science, and obviously the occult side as well. It also links in Parsons, which someone downthread mentioned. Unfortunately, the book has this to say about the mirror: The large obsidian mirror that is often associated with Dee, an Aztec cult artifact dedicated to Tezcatlipoca brought back from the New World after the conquest of Mexico by Cortés, which has long been on display at the British Museum,54 may not have been used at all, nor has it been conclusively shown that the mirror even belonged to Dee. If the black mirror was Dee’s, it may have come into his possession at Louvain or through a Spanish courtier.55 Of the other objects in the British Museum attributed to Dee’s use, it is likely that only the three wax seals actually belonged to him; the crystal ball and gold engraving of the “Vision of the Four Castles” are probably later acquisitions by collectors from other magicians or antiquarians who reproduced them from Casaubon’s printing of A True & Faithful Relation.56 [0]: https://smile.amazon.com/John-Dee-Empire-Angels-Enochian/dp/1620555891/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=john+dees+angels&qid=1634174693&sr=8-1 https://smile.amazon.com/John-Dee-Empire-Angels-Enochian/dp/...

by adolph 5y ago

FredPret 5y ago

If you fully believe in the Biblical God, that behaviour kind of makes sense

dane-pgp 5y ago
I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure that the Bible portrays "a pre-apocalyptic unity of mankind" as being a desirable or achievable goal.
- nwatson 5y ago
  I agree, but the recently rising "Seven Mountains Mandate" sub-section of Evangelicals think otherwise, and are convinced their job is do dominate the seven areas of human culture and "bring heaven to earth", and part of that is to unify humankind under a not-so-tolerant theocracy. A portion of them also are into dreams and visions as a means to new revelation, and are largely Q-inspired and conspiracy-minded as well.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
If you fully believe in the Biblical God, then both sorcery and astrology are forbidden, IIRC.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Fezzik 5y ago
  According to the Bible witchcraft/sorcery is 1) real and 2) punishable by death: ‘Thou shalt not suffer a witch (sorceress) to live.’ Exodus 22:18. Sorcery and astrology are certainly frowned upon: ‘The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so.’ Deuteronomy 18:9-14.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    Ex 22:18, as I understand specifically (in the original text not the English translations) uses a term that refers specifically to a woman who casts evil spells (which is pretty close to the common understanding of “witch” but not with the more general interpretation you have imposed on it.) The OT, as I further understand, contains a number of different prohibitions of very specific magical practices in the source language, most of which are highly genericized in most English translations. (There's also a specific enumeration of the parts of the Jewish law that remain in force for Christians in Acts 15, and most of the probibitions under discussion here don't fall within its scope.)
    - bobthechef 5y ago
      Whether there is an explicit biblical condemnation (I don't know, but I would be surprised if there weren't) is not relevant, at least not to a Catholic. Sola scriptura is the province of Protestants.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      Add Isaiah 8:19-22 to the mix. It pretty clearly condemns consulting spiritists and mediums. (Depending on your definition of the English word "sorcery", that may count.)
as300 5y ago
Sure, but didn't pretty much every English person those days? I feel the real interesting point is that he was interested in the unknown, and back in those days they didn't have the modern distinctions between what we now consider as natural and supernatural. Seems that if you want to make progress in human knowledge, you assume the risk of doing things that appear frivolous or just stupid in hindsight.
- neaden 5y ago
  Reminds me of Jack Parsons, one of the most influential rocket scientists and co-founder of Jet Propulsion Labs and committed Thelemite occultist. Or John Murray Spear, a clergyman from the 1800s who campaigned for women's equality, rights for workers, abolition, and getting rid of the death penalty. He also believed he was talking to Ben Franklin's ghost and tried to build what was essentially a robot Jesus.
  - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
    >tried to build what was essentially a robot Jesus Lol! I had to look this up, and indeed it’s true: http://www.danbaines.com/blog/tag/New+Motive+Power http://www.danbaines.com/blog/tag/New+Motive+Power
  - tkgally 5y ago
    And Isaac Newton: “English physicist and mathematician Isaac Newton produced works exploring chronology, and biblical interpretation (especially of the Apocalypse), and alchemy. Some of this could be considered occult. Also, Newton described himself as a ‘natural philosopher’, and his work is grounded in Aristotelian metaphysics. Newton’s scientific work may have been of lesser personal importance to him, as he placed emphasis on rediscovering the wisdom of the ancients. In this sense, some historians, including economist John Maynard Keynes, believe that any reference to a ‘Newtonian Worldview’ as being purely mechanical in nature is somewhat inaccurate.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studie...
    - 5y ago
bobthechef 5y ago
I don't see how you could have possibly come to that conclusion. At all. Superstition and the occult have always been condemned by the Church as irrational and immoral[0]. This sounds like one of those vague anti-Christian sentiments from the Enlightenment that somehow remains fashionable to this day. In spirit, modern science is closer to the occult in the sense that mastery over nature is a major motivation for its pursuit. [0] https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14339a.htm https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14339a.htm

ctoth 5y ago

This guy is incredibly interesting! I really liked the book John Dee and the Empire of Angels: Enochian Magick and the Occult Roots of the Modern World[0] which explores his life, contributions to science, and obviously the occult side as well. It also links in Parsons, which someone downthread mentioned. Unfortunately, the book has this to say about the mirror: The large obsidian mirror that is often associated with Dee, an Aztec cult artifact dedicated to Tezcatlipoca brought back from the New World after the conquest of Mexico by Cortés, which has long been on display at the British Museum,54 may not have been used at all, nor has it been conclusively shown that the mirror even belonged to Dee. If the black mirror was Dee’s, it may have come into his possession at Louvain or through a Spanish courtier.55 Of the other objects in the British Museum attributed to Dee’s use, it is likely that only the three wax seals actually belonged to him; the crystal ball and gold engraving of the “Vision of the Four Castles” are probably later acquisitions by collectors from other magicians or antiquarians who reproduced them from Casaubon’s printing of A True & Faithful Relation.56 [0]: https://smile.amazon.com/John-Dee-Empire-Angels-Enochian/dp/1620555891/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=john+dees+angels&qid=1634174693&sr=8-1 https://smile.amazon.com/John-Dee-Empire-Angels-Enochian/dp/...