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I'm so happy Linux is an option on the computer. When it comes to phones I feel stuck behind a rock and a hard place - choose iPhone, with poor Linux integrati

by radlad 5y ago

I'm so happy Linux is an option on the computer. When it comes to phones I feel stuck behind a rock and a hard place - choose iPhone, with poor Linux integration and threats to passively scan files on my phone and forward them to LEO? Sure, they have a decent record with security but these bug bounty reports haven't been great. Or choose Android, with its poor privacy record, a result of being built by an ad company that's already scanning my phone and mining it for data? edited to add - While I'd love to see a true competitor in this space (i.e. not based on Android - those projects don't seem to work out well as a result of being half-in/half-out of the ecosystem) I don't see how it's possible without the support of the large tech players - Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, WhatsApp, Twitter, and Spotify at minimum, to say nothing of the long tail.

noneeeed 5y ago
Likewise. I'm in the market for a new phone. I want to get something top of the line and then keep it for at least 5 years, so good updates etc. But I have serious issues with both Google and Apple at this point. For me it isn't really the tech companies that need to buy in to make an alternative phone OS viable, but things like banks. Online mobile banking is one of the main things I use my phone for after web browsing and messaging. The probability that it won't work on some third OS is what puts me off trying some of the alternatives.
- radlad 5y ago
  Great point. I recall some banking apps placing restrictions on logging in without SafetyNet, e.g. which also puts some of the other Android-based OS's out of the running.
h4waii 5y ago
I get that a lot of the Android-based projects don't pan out, but LineageOS has been going for quite a while now, CalyxOS is relatively new, and GrapheneOS (previously CopperheadOS) have successfully established themselves as the defacto hardened Android platform. You can download the source, modify it, and build them all freely. Hopefully more people can get involved and move the needle instead of only lamenting how they don't succeed while not actively trying to help them succeed. I mean this in a respectful way.
- radlad 5y ago
  > Hopefully more people can get involved and move the needle instead of only lamenting how they don't succeed while not actively trying to help them succeed. That's totally fair. I don't really have the time or Java/Kotlin/mobile familiarity to jump in here, and these aren't skills I can easily apply elsewhere in my career, personally. > LineageOS has been going for quite a while now, CalyxOS is relatively new, and GrapheneOS (previously CopperheadOS) My impression of these OSes is that they still rely on Google Play Services - or if not, micro-G which has many shortcomings. When most of the ecosystem doesn't work until you invite Google back in, it doesn't seem like a true alternative IMO. Admittedly I haven't personally tried running any of them. Which one would you recommend trying if I were aiming to rid myself of Google's omnipresence?
  - ev1 5y ago
    You can install Lineage without Play, and only use Lineage. Graphene does not require Play Services, but it only runs on a small subset of Android phones that are ~$500+ here (heavily discouraged to use anything older than 4a 5G)
  - rOOb85 5y ago
    You can run one of those os's without any Google services. Paid apps are almost certain to not run, and a bunch of other apps that rely on the services. But almost all the apps I use work great. I have used CalyxOS and it's a great os. I did use microG and 98% of the apps I use worked flawlessly. If you have a supported phone, I'd definitely give it a shot.
    - radlad 5y ago
      I understand it can be done, but then many Android apps can't be run anymore. It's not a viable alternative for many users.
heavyset_go 5y ago
> I don't see how it's possible without the support of the large tech players - Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, WhatsApp, Twitter, and Spotify at minimum, to say nothing of the long tail. This wouldn't be much of a problem if it wasn't for Google's SafetyNet that prevents Android apps from running on hardware and software platforms that Google doesn't approve of. You wouldn't need support from large companies if you were able to run the apps they already release for Android. Compatibility layers like Anbox or Waydroid that allow you to run Android apps on Linux can't run SafetyNet-enabled apps, despite having no problem running other Android apps. SafetyNet prevents compatibility layers like WSL 1 & 2, Proton or WINE with Android support from coming to Windows or other platforms, as well.
- nijave 5y ago
  What's SafetyNet have to do with anything? It's opt it device attestation the app creator has to implement It's not Android/Google forcing SafetyNet on you, it's app developers insisting you need some special end user setup
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    I have the same problems with SafetyNet as I do with Widevine. > What's SafetyNet have to do with anything? I thought I made that pretty clear in my post. I was addressing a post about competitors to Android facing challenges because of lack of app support from major companies. SafetyNet helps Google maintain their mobile OS duopoly with Apple by preventing other mobile operating systems from running Android apps, despite there not being any technical reason why the apps can't run on other operating systems. Steam was able to bring Windows games over to Linux via Proton because of projects like WINE. SafetyNet precludes running Android apps on devices and operating systems Google doesn't approve of. Microsoft was able to bring Linux apps over to Windows via WSL 1 & 2. SafetyNet precludes running Android apps on Windows unless Google gives Windows a pass in their DRM.
lern_too_spel 5y ago
Android doesn't scan your phone and mine it for data. Apps on Android scan your phone and mine it for data. Apps on iOS also scan your phone and mine it for data. The major difference between the two is that Android lets you choose which apps to put on your phone.
- nijave 5y ago
  "Android" doesn't but Google Play services & bundled apps do
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    Google Play Services and bundled apps don't have to be enabled and sends less data to Google than the equivalent services on iOS, which must be enabled.
    - radlad 5y ago
      Google Play Services does need to be enabled to use many (most?) mainstream apps. Have a source for them sending less data? Even if it were true, the use of that data differs.
      - lern_too_spel 5y ago
        To install any apps on an iPhone at all, you must give Apple your billing information. Even if you install apps from the Google Play store, you do not need to give up that much privacy.
        radlad 5y ago
        I think we might have different ideas of privacy.
        lern_too_spel 5y ago
        How about this: to get your location on iOS, your location must also be sent to Apple. You can get your location on Android without sending that location to anybody. None of the apps on Amazon App Store or F-Droid use Google Play Services.
atatatat 5y ago
> Or choose Android, with its poor privacy record, a result of being built by an ad company that's already scanning my phone and mining it for data? GrapheneOS.org

by radlad 5y ago

noneeeed 5y ago

Likewise. I'm in the market for a new phone. I want to get something top of the line and then keep it for at least 5 years, so good updates etc. But I have serious issues with both Google and Apple at this point. For me it isn't really the tech companies that need to buy in to make an alternative phone OS viable, but things like banks. Online mobile banking is one of the main things I use my phone for after web browsing and messaging. The probability that it won't work on some third OS is what puts me off trying some of the alternatives.

radlad 5y ago
Great point. I recall some banking apps placing restrictions on logging in without SafetyNet, e.g. which also puts some of the other Android-based OS's out of the running.

h4waii 5y ago

I get that a lot of the Android-based projects don't pan out, but LineageOS has been going for quite a while now, CalyxOS is relatively new, and GrapheneOS (previously CopperheadOS) have successfully established themselves as the defacto hardened Android platform. You can download the source, modify it, and build them all freely. Hopefully more people can get involved and move the needle instead of only lamenting how they don't succeed while not actively trying to help them succeed. I mean this in a respectful way.

radlad 5y ago
> Hopefully more people can get involved and move the needle instead of only lamenting how they don't succeed while not actively trying to help them succeed. That's totally fair. I don't really have the time or Java/Kotlin/mobile familiarity to jump in here, and these aren't skills I can easily apply elsewhere in my career, personally. > LineageOS has been going for quite a while now, CalyxOS is relatively new, and GrapheneOS (previously CopperheadOS) My impression of these OSes is that they still rely on Google Play Services - or if not, micro-G which has many shortcomings. When most of the ecosystem doesn't work until you invite Google back in, it doesn't seem like a true alternative IMO. Admittedly I haven't personally tried running any of them. Which one would you recommend trying if I were aiming to rid myself of Google's omnipresence?
- ev1 5y ago
  You can install Lineage without Play, and only use Lineage. Graphene does not require Play Services, but it only runs on a small subset of Android phones that are ~$500+ here (heavily discouraged to use anything older than 4a 5G)
- rOOb85 5y ago
  You can run one of those os's without any Google services. Paid apps are almost certain to not run, and a bunch of other apps that rely on the services. But almost all the apps I use work great. I have used CalyxOS and it's a great os. I did use microG and 98% of the apps I use worked flawlessly. If you have a supported phone, I'd definitely give it a shot.
  - radlad 5y ago
    I understand it can be done, but then many Android apps can't be run anymore. It's not a viable alternative for many users.

heavyset_go 5y ago

> I don't see how it's possible without the support of the large tech players - Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, WhatsApp, Twitter, and Spotify at minimum, to say nothing of the long tail. This wouldn't be much of a problem if it wasn't for Google's SafetyNet that prevents Android apps from running on hardware and software platforms that Google doesn't approve of. You wouldn't need support from large companies if you were able to run the apps they already release for Android. Compatibility layers like Anbox or Waydroid that allow you to run Android apps on Linux can't run SafetyNet-enabled apps, despite having no problem running other Android apps. SafetyNet prevents compatibility layers like WSL 1 & 2, Proton or WINE with Android support from coming to Windows or other platforms, as well.

nijave 5y ago
What's SafetyNet have to do with anything? It's opt it device attestation the app creator has to implement It's not Android/Google forcing SafetyNet on you, it's app developers insisting you need some special end user setup
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  I have the same problems with SafetyNet as I do with Widevine. > What's SafetyNet have to do with anything? I thought I made that pretty clear in my post. I was addressing a post about competitors to Android facing challenges because of lack of app support from major companies. SafetyNet helps Google maintain their mobile OS duopoly with Apple by preventing other mobile operating systems from running Android apps, despite there not being any technical reason why the apps can't run on other operating systems. Steam was able to bring Windows games over to Linux via Proton because of projects like WINE. SafetyNet precludes running Android apps on devices and operating systems Google doesn't approve of. Microsoft was able to bring Linux apps over to Windows via WSL 1 & 2. SafetyNet precludes running Android apps on Windows unless Google gives Windows a pass in their DRM.

lern_too_spel 5y ago

Android doesn't scan your phone and mine it for data. Apps on Android scan your phone and mine it for data. Apps on iOS also scan your phone and mine it for data. The major difference between the two is that Android lets you choose which apps to put on your phone.

nijave 5y ago
"Android" doesn't but Google Play services & bundled apps do
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  Google Play Services and bundled apps don't have to be enabled and sends less data to Google than the equivalent services on iOS, which must be enabled.
  - radlad 5y ago
    Google Play Services does need to be enabled to use many (most?) mainstream apps. Have a source for them sending less data? Even if it were true, the use of that data differs.
    - lern_too_spel 5y ago
      To install any apps on an iPhone at all, you must give Apple your billing information. Even if you install apps from the Google Play store, you do not need to give up that much privacy.
      - radlad 5y ago
        I think we might have different ideas of privacy.
        lern_too_spel 5y ago
        How about this: to get your location on iOS, your location must also be sent to Apple. You can get your location on Android without sending that location to anybody. None of the apps on Amazon App Store or F-Droid use Google Play Services.

atatatat 5y ago

> Or choose Android, with its poor privacy record, a result of being built by an ad company that's already scanning my phone and mining it for data? GrapheneOS.org