5 ms·

Being the front line of the Cold War, while both the US and USSR developed battle plans for where nuclear weapons would be detonated in your country during a wa

by ethbr0 5y ago

Being the front line of the Cold War, while both the US and USSR developed battle plans for where nuclear weapons would be detonated in your country during a war, probably lends shades to the debate that aren't present in other countries. (Yes, nuclear power / nuclear weapons, but in the 70s that wasn't a clear distinction)

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> both the US and USSR developed battle plans for where nuclear weapons would be detonated in your country during a war Do we know if younger Germans are more open to nuclear power than Cold War era ones?
- junon 5y ago
  Anecdotally, no. Young Germans (at least, mid-late twenties into the thirties) tend to have the same sort of sentiments.
handrous 5y ago
They were close enough (and downwind-enough) to experience direct effects from Chernobyl, no? Destroying contaminated produce, taking iodine pills as a precaution, that sort of thing, and, I'd guess, worries, for a time, about much worse consequences before the emergency was contained.
- Torwald 5y ago
  And lockdowns. First lockdowns in my life. We weren't even allowed to play in the garden.
- zsmi 5y ago
  https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/accident-management/emergency/chernobyl/health-effects-europe.html https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/accident-management/emergen... "To date, there is no evidence that the reactor accident has caused adverse health effects due to radiation in Germany."
  - deepsun 5y ago
    Well, I heard the same statement for Belarus, the most impacted country by Chernobyl (with still-in-effect Evacuation Zone). The key? How to calculate "health effects". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Exclusion_Zone#/media/File:Chernobyl_radiation_map_1996.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Exclusion_Zone#/medi...
  - Gwypaas 5y ago
    As a result of the Chernobyl reactor accident, certain species of mushrooms and wild game are still highly contaminated with caesium-137 in some areas of Germany. https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/environment/foodstuffs/mushrooms-game/mushrooms-game_node.html https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/environment/foodstuffs/mush...
    - nsonha 5y ago
      Imagine them end up exported
  - semi-extrinsic 5y ago
    A lot of the fallout on land in Western Europe was in Scandinavia and Austria due to the prevailing winds and the places where clouds happened to precipitate into rain. In some regions they are still today monitoring the cesium content of grass and moss, and bringing sheep and reindeer in for the weeks before slaughter to be fed hay from other regions to ensure the meat is within acceptable dose limits. Edit - link to map: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Timothy-Mousseau/publication/7080615/figure/fig1/AS:280088143777792@1443789625546/Distribution-of-radiation-in-Europe-in-May-1986-as-a-result-of-the-Chernobyl-disaster.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Timothy-Mousseau/public...
    - cure 5y ago
      This. That map explains why so many people people are afraid of nuclear. In 1986 one plant had a major accident, and look at all that contamination across western and northern Europe, thousands of kilometers away. Hundreds of millions of people were affected, and the consequences are still quite real, 35 years later.
mikeyouse 5y ago
Plus parts of Germany were actually impacted by Chernobyl with measurable radiation in their food / water / livestock. Low levels to be sure, but in the context of the cold war I'm sure there's a long memory for a massive nuclear coverup by a antagonistic neighbor that pollutes your land.
simorley 5y ago
Considering MAD existed and most nukes would have been dropped on the US and USSR, not Germany, I don't think that's the issue. We and the russians had far more to worry about than the germans. Of course MAD pretty much ensured a 0% chance of nuclear war so really nothing to worry about. Nations truly worried about nuclear weapons develop them, not fight against them. Think about it. Considering that Germany is an american vassal with significant russian influence, it's more likely political factions tied to US and Russia. US doesn't want Germany to develop nuclear energy because nuclear energy research is the same thing as a nuclear weapons research. A nuclear armed germany is pretty much an independent germany which is something no empire desires. Empire and freedom/independence/sovereignty don't mix. And russians don't want germany to develop nuclear energy because they want to sell more oil/gas to germany and gain more influence over germany/europe.
- bernulli 5y ago
  Maybe you missed the part in Cold War doctrine where Germany is the battlefield intended to be used up to stop the invasion before the Rhine.
- TMWNN 5y ago
  >Considering MAD existed and most nukes would have been dropped on the US and USSR, not Germany, I don't think that's the issue. We and the russians had far more to worry about than the germans. Completely wrong. A NATO-Russia war could have been (and still could) be fought entirely in central Europe. This might include tactical nuclear weapons, delivered by short- and medium-range missiles and aircraft. This is why it was said that "In Germany, the towns are only two kilotons apart" (<https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1978/12/11/natos-atomic-stockpile-primarily-political-weapons/9fceeb3b-3b62-484b-8f2b-26ecf0f35616/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1978/12/11/n...>). To put another way, it's possible to realistically imagine a war in which Germany is hit with nuclear weapons but the US and Russia aren't. It's not realistic to imagine a war in which the US and Russia are hit with nukes but Germany isn't.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    > might include tactical nuclear weapons, delivered by short- and medium-range missiles and aircraft Also, people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Light_Teams https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Light_Teams

by ethbr0 5y ago

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> both the US and USSR developed battle plans for where nuclear weapons would be detonated in your country during a war Do we know if younger Germans are more open to nuclear power than Cold War era ones?

junon 5y ago
Anecdotally, no. Young Germans (at least, mid-late twenties into the thirties) tend to have the same sort of sentiments.

handrous 5y ago

They were close enough (and downwind-enough) to experience direct effects from Chernobyl, no? Destroying contaminated produce, taking iodine pills as a precaution, that sort of thing, and, I'd guess, worries, for a time, about much worse consequences before the emergency was contained.

Torwald 5y ago
And lockdowns. First lockdowns in my life. We weren't even allowed to play in the garden.
zsmi 5y ago
https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/accident-management/emergency/chernobyl/health-effects-europe.html https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/accident-management/emergen... "To date, there is no evidence that the reactor accident has caused adverse health effects due to radiation in Germany."
- deepsun 5y ago
  Well, I heard the same statement for Belarus, the most impacted country by Chernobyl (with still-in-effect Evacuation Zone). The key? How to calculate "health effects". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Exclusion_Zone#/media/File:Chernobyl_radiation_map_1996.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Exclusion_Zone#/medi...
- Gwypaas 5y ago
  As a result of the Chernobyl reactor accident, certain species of mushrooms and wild game are still highly contaminated with caesium-137 in some areas of Germany. https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/environment/foodstuffs/mushrooms-game/mushrooms-game_node.html https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/ion/environment/foodstuffs/mush...
  - nsonha 5y ago
    Imagine them end up exported
- semi-extrinsic 5y ago
  A lot of the fallout on land in Western Europe was in Scandinavia and Austria due to the prevailing winds and the places where clouds happened to precipitate into rain. In some regions they are still today monitoring the cesium content of grass and moss, and bringing sheep and reindeer in for the weeks before slaughter to be fed hay from other regions to ensure the meat is within acceptable dose limits. Edit - link to map: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Timothy-Mousseau/publication/7080615/figure/fig1/AS:280088143777792@1443789625546/Distribution-of-radiation-in-Europe-in-May-1986-as-a-result-of-the-Chernobyl-disaster.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Timothy-Mousseau/public...
  - cure 5y ago
    This. That map explains why so many people people are afraid of nuclear. In 1986 one plant had a major accident, and look at all that contamination across western and northern Europe, thousands of kilometers away. Hundreds of millions of people were affected, and the consequences are still quite real, 35 years later.

mikeyouse 5y ago

Plus parts of Germany were actually impacted by Chernobyl with measurable radiation in their food / water / livestock. Low levels to be sure, but in the context of the cold war I'm sure there's a long memory for a massive nuclear coverup by a antagonistic neighbor that pollutes your land.

simorley 5y ago

Considering MAD existed and most nukes would have been dropped on the US and USSR, not Germany, I don't think that's the issue. We and the russians had far more to worry about than the germans. Of course MAD pretty much ensured a 0% chance of nuclear war so really nothing to worry about. Nations truly worried about nuclear weapons develop them, not fight against them. Think about it. Considering that Germany is an american vassal with significant russian influence, it's more likely political factions tied to US and Russia. US doesn't want Germany to develop nuclear energy because nuclear energy research is the same thing as a nuclear weapons research. A nuclear armed germany is pretty much an independent germany which is something no empire desires. Empire and freedom/independence/sovereignty don't mix. And russians don't want germany to develop nuclear energy because they want to sell more oil/gas to germany and gain more influence over germany/europe.

bernulli 5y ago
Maybe you missed the part in Cold War doctrine where Germany is the battlefield intended to be used up to stop the invasion before the Rhine.
TMWNN 5y ago
>Considering MAD existed and most nukes would have been dropped on the US and USSR, not Germany, I don't think that's the issue. We and the russians had far more to worry about than the germans. Completely wrong. A NATO-Russia war could have been (and still could) be fought entirely in central Europe. This might include tactical nuclear weapons, delivered by short- and medium-range missiles and aircraft. This is why it was said that "In Germany, the towns are only two kilotons apart" (<https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1978/12/11/natos-atomic-stockpile-primarily-political-weapons/9fceeb3b-3b62-484b-8f2b-26ecf0f35616/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1978/12/11/n...>). To put another way, it's possible to realistically imagine a war in which Germany is hit with nuclear weapons but the US and Russia aren't. It's not realistic to imagine a war in which the US and Russia are hit with nukes but Germany isn't.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  > might include tactical nuclear weapons, delivered by short- and medium-range missiles and aircraft Also, people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Light_Teams https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Light_Teams