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Politicians. College has gotten to expensive because the government is involved and has made it a priority for everyone to get a college degree...when many of

Politicians. College has gotten to expensive because the government is involved and has made it a priority for everyone to get a college degree...when many of the people going to college have no business being there. Give out money to kids to go to college...demand goes up...prices go up...give out more money...and the cycle continues. Healthcare simply has too many hands in the pot. Government pays x amount but it costs hospitals 2x...so they charge 3x to insurance companies to make up the difference. It's insane, but making it "free" may not be what fixes it. What safety net does the US not have? Over 60% of people paid no federal income tax last year and we have huge numbers of programs to help low income people.

dragontamer 5y ago
> Healthcare simply has too many hands in the pot. Government pays x amount but it costs hospitals 2x...so they charge 3x to insurance companies to make up the difference. It's insane, but making it "free" may not be what fixes it. One of the biggest debates getting stonewalled right now, is whether or not the US Government should negotiate prices for Medicare. Making this a "free healthcare" debate is just... missing the forest for the trees. There's a political party that's against even the US Government negotiating for better prices but otherwise keeping the same system. As if negotiations are a bad thing or something. Look, I'm not liberal to believe in free healthcare, but... surely making the government pay less money for the same services is a good thing?
- adolph 5y ago
  The government could tax the service at a higher rate, which is fiscally similar to negotiating lower rates except the feature that taxes also skim from the non-govt payor remittances.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    That also has the effect of artificially raising the price for everyone outside of the government sphere of influence. Ex: me, because I'm not on Medicare / Medicaid yet. Since I have to pay for my medical procedures, the fact that the big government has "decided" that its okay to overpay on X means that I __also__ have to overpay on X. I, the small market participant, am relying upon the big guys to negotiate prices and set them more fairly for the rest of the market. Nominally, this is the job of insurance companies, but no one trusts those guys. (I pay for insurance. The insurance companies negotiate more detailed prices with hospitals). And there's the issue that the government (or more precisely: Medicare / Medicaid) is a "bigger" market participant than any insurance company, so the government's lack of negotiation is probably raising prices on everybody artificially.
- j_walter 5y ago
  >surely making the government pay less money for the same services is a good thing? Is it? Are they actually paying less...or is the cost being dumped on to someone else? This is like saying people who get SNAP benefits are paying less and everyone wins...except someone has to pick up the cost. Many Medicare costs aren't negotiated and the hospitals are told what they will pay for certain procedures (and again hospitals change the price for others to make up the difference). I think what they are talking about is prescription drug prices...which even Trump said needed to be done.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    > Are they actually paying less...or is the cost being dumped on to someone else? Cost compared to what? In a free market situation, everyone gets to negotiate for the price. It seems insane to be a group advocating for the free market of ideas, only to decide that the free market / negotiation suddenly doesn't work in this case. If the government negotiates too low, then the other side rejects the deal. If the government negotiates too high, the other side accepts the deal and the government wastes money (but probably less waste than no negotiation at all). You know, like sane people would. Standard free market philosophy. Government doesn't want to lose services (Medicare / Medicaid promises a set of services), so that incentivizes the Government not to shoot too low on the price. That's the price discovery mechanism.
    - nebula8804 5y ago
      AOC rebutted this point years ago. I'm starting to think we will be having these pointless discussions for decades or until the system completely collapses. There is just so much disinformation out there and it is still being peddled today in 2021. [1]: https://youtu.be/Ma2FvPTi5uQ?t=16 https://youtu.be/Ma2FvPTi5uQ?t=16
nebula8804 5y ago
>Politicians. College has gotten to expensive because the government is involved and has made it a priority for everyone to get a college degree...when many of the people going to college have no business being there. Give out money to kids to go to college...demand goes up...prices go up...give out more money...and the cycle continues. What you are ignoring is that government is more involved in colleges in these other countries and they manage to keep it under control. Again, how is the US screwing up whereas everyone else has it working properly? You haven't actually addressed this. >Healthcare simply has too many hands in the pot. Government pays x amount but it costs hospitals 2x...so they charge 3x to insurance companies to make up the difference. It's insane, but making it "free" may not be what fixes it. Again....you are ignoring my point...It is working in other countries right now! If making it free does not fix it what will? The only other option is going further in the opposite direction of all the working systems... >What safety net does the US not have? Over 60% of people paid no federal income tax last year and we have huge numbers of programs to help low income people. Most programs have very strict criteria (thanks to corporatist Republicans and Democrats) such that you either have to fall into very bad poverty to even quality, wait a tremendous amount of time to get in, and then have to contend with so many criteria that forces you to either remain in a certain state of poverty or else you are kicked out of the program before you have gotten back on your feet. This is no real safety net like what other economies have. This is bolted on garbage to use as a talking point for people like you.
- j_walter 5y ago
  You can look at the Pandemic assistance that the federal government put out as a great example of how they incentivize not being a productive member of society. $600 a week above normal unemployment benefits...more than half the people made more not working than working for several months. How much money was wasted giving people money to stay home where expenses should be less than if you were working (no childcare, no driving to work, more time to cook meals...not to mention not having to pay rent). Governments in other countries are more involved in colleges...and they also restrict who gets in. We let pretty much everyone in that wants to go and will give them money to do so...that is a terrible way to run the system.

dragontamer 5y ago

> Healthcare simply has too many hands in the pot. Government pays x amount but it costs hospitals 2x...so they charge 3x to insurance companies to make up the difference. It's insane, but making it "free" may not be what fixes it. One of the biggest debates getting stonewalled right now, is whether or not the US Government should negotiate prices for Medicare. Making this a "free healthcare" debate is just... missing the forest for the trees. There's a political party that's against even the US Government negotiating for better prices but otherwise keeping the same system. As if negotiations are a bad thing or something. Look, I'm not liberal to believe in free healthcare, but... surely making the government pay less money for the same services is a good thing?

adolph 5y ago
The government could tax the service at a higher rate, which is fiscally similar to negotiating lower rates except the feature that taxes also skim from the non-govt payor remittances.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  That also has the effect of artificially raising the price for everyone outside of the government sphere of influence. Ex: me, because I'm not on Medicare / Medicaid yet. Since I have to pay for my medical procedures, the fact that the big government has "decided" that its okay to overpay on X means that I __also__ have to overpay on X. I, the small market participant, am relying upon the big guys to negotiate prices and set them more fairly for the rest of the market. Nominally, this is the job of insurance companies, but no one trusts those guys. (I pay for insurance. The insurance companies negotiate more detailed prices with hospitals). And there's the issue that the government (or more precisely: Medicare / Medicaid) is a "bigger" market participant than any insurance company, so the government's lack of negotiation is probably raising prices on everybody artificially.
j_walter 5y ago
>surely making the government pay less money for the same services is a good thing? Is it? Are they actually paying less...or is the cost being dumped on to someone else? This is like saying people who get SNAP benefits are paying less and everyone wins...except someone has to pick up the cost. Many Medicare costs aren't negotiated and the hospitals are told what they will pay for certain procedures (and again hospitals change the price for others to make up the difference). I think what they are talking about is prescription drug prices...which even Trump said needed to be done.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  > Are they actually paying less...or is the cost being dumped on to someone else? Cost compared to what? In a free market situation, everyone gets to negotiate for the price. It seems insane to be a group advocating for the free market of ideas, only to decide that the free market / negotiation suddenly doesn't work in this case. If the government negotiates too low, then the other side rejects the deal. If the government negotiates too high, the other side accepts the deal and the government wastes money (but probably less waste than no negotiation at all). You know, like sane people would. Standard free market philosophy. Government doesn't want to lose services (Medicare / Medicaid promises a set of services), so that incentivizes the Government not to shoot too low on the price. That's the price discovery mechanism.
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    AOC rebutted this point years ago. I'm starting to think we will be having these pointless discussions for decades or until the system completely collapses. There is just so much disinformation out there and it is still being peddled today in 2021. [1]: https://youtu.be/Ma2FvPTi5uQ?t=16 https://youtu.be/Ma2FvPTi5uQ?t=16

nebula8804 5y ago

>Politicians. College has gotten to expensive because the government is involved and has made it a priority for everyone to get a college degree...when many of the people going to college have no business being there. Give out money to kids to go to college...demand goes up...prices go up...give out more money...and the cycle continues. What you are ignoring is that government is more involved in colleges in these other countries and they manage to keep it under control. Again, how is the US screwing up whereas everyone else has it working properly? You haven't actually addressed this. >Healthcare simply has too many hands in the pot. Government pays x amount but it costs hospitals 2x...so they charge 3x to insurance companies to make up the difference. It's insane, but making it "free" may not be what fixes it. Again....you are ignoring my point...It is working in other countries right now! If making it free does not fix it what will? The only other option is going further in the opposite direction of all the working systems... >What safety net does the US not have? Over 60% of people paid no federal income tax last year and we have huge numbers of programs to help low income people. Most programs have very strict criteria (thanks to corporatist Republicans and Democrats) such that you either have to fall into very bad poverty to even quality, wait a tremendous amount of time to get in, and then have to contend with so many criteria that forces you to either remain in a certain state of poverty or else you are kicked out of the program before you have gotten back on your feet. This is no real safety net like what other economies have. This is bolted on garbage to use as a talking point for people like you.

j_walter 5y ago
You can look at the Pandemic assistance that the federal government put out as a great example of how they incentivize not being a productive member of society. $600 a week above normal unemployment benefits...more than half the people made more not working than working for several months. How much money was wasted giving people money to stay home where expenses should be less than if you were working (no childcare, no driving to work, more time to cook meals...not to mention not having to pay rent). Governments in other countries are more involved in colleges...and they also restrict who gets in. We let pretty much everyone in that wants to go and will give them money to do so...that is a terrible way to run the system.