7 ms·

Microsoft should implement an Xbox mode for Windows that has these protection features for all games. It will probably require some virtualization and performan

by rafale 5y ago

Microsoft should implement an Xbox mode for Windows that has these protection features for all games. It will probably require some virtualization and performance degradation but it's better than each game rolling out their own half assed drivers.

908B64B197 5y ago
Ironically, in XBox OS I'm pretty sure there's not a big distinction between usermode and kernel mode.
- zeusk 5y ago
  There is, it's windows with a different shell since 2013
- Arainach 5y ago
  Everything is very much separated. It's actually a series of OSes running in a hypervisor. http://meseec.ce.rit.edu/551-projects/fall2016/3-4.pdf http://meseec.ce.rit.edu/551-projects/fall2016/3-4.pdf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quLa6kzzra0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quLa6kzzra0 (for software discussion check around the 19:00 mark but the whole talk is incredible)
VortexDream 5y ago
How about no? This will just lead these companies to implement anti-cheat to protect the "integrity" of their single player games (and their MTX) as well. Say goodbye to mods and other forms of benign game hacking (particularly hacks that fix games like Dark Souls).
- divbzero 5y ago
  Would it be in a game company’s interest to implement anti-cheat for single player games? Mods and other forms of benign game hacking increase the popularity and longevity of games which presumably benefit profitability.
  - grp000 5y ago
    I don't think it's a question of "would", it's a question of "why", since that's what's going on right now. You can point to single player paid cosmetics as a profiteering aspect. Greedy executives who care about short-term quarterly sales numbers for bonuses and stock influencing maybe aswell? I wouldn't consider myself knowledgeable of the game industry, but that's one of my bets.
  - krono 5y ago
    EA and Rockstar banned people from Battlefield 5 multiplayer and GTA online for having modded their single player games. Google for a few minutes and you'll come across plenty of horror stories and news items. But of course the real reason they would love to prevent anyone from tampering with the game is so they can sell more single player cheats such as experience booster packs.
    - maccard 5y ago
      They do? I googled it and it's full of "I accidentally left my mods on and connected to GTAO and got banned", not " I was banned for playing modded single player games"
      - krono 5y ago
        Yeah, listed some random hits for you below. I don't personally play either game, but from what I've come across on the subject over the years, publishers seem to be a lot less difficult about it today compared to a few years ago. I recall reading about them denying a ban was due to mod use when they were wrong, being ridiculously vague about what modding was and what wasn't allowed, refusing to fully restore a player's character even after a ban was rescinded, etc. https://www.pcgamer.com/gta-online-players-report-multiple-unfair-bans-following-latest-update/ https://www.pcgamer.com/gta-online-players-report-multiple-u... https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/g139nu/eas_volunteer_mods_are_banning_and_silencing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/g139nu/eas_volunt... Interesting edge case: https://www.pcgamer.com/gtav-modders-reportedly-banned-for-creating-their-own-online-realm/ https://www.pcgamer.com/gtav-modders-reportedly-banned-for-c...
- gambiting 5y ago
  Rampant cheating in online FPS games is a problem right now. I've had more games ruined by cheaters than I can count. So how about yes, let's focus on fixing the problem at hand, and if it's used for something else(like single player games) then I'll complain about it. Right now developers have my full support to use whatever methods they can to make sure the hackers stay out. The game can boot into its own OS for all I care.
  - VortexDream 5y ago
    By the time it becomes a problem, it'll be too late to reverse. You think publishers will willingly give up the ability lock down their games on PCs? It's been their dream for decades. I'd rather not give up what we can do with the software we've paid for (and I don't care what some piece of crap ToS says I can or cannot do with the software), just so you get less cheaters in online games.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      But that's really not a great place to use this argument - this isn't surveillance infrastructure or encryption backdoors where yes, once it's built a) it will be used for nefarious purposes b) it's really hard to get rid of. Game sandboxing is already very easy to achieve(at least on windows) and doesn't require any special software to be developed or deployed. It's all part of the Microsoft GDK and is already used - a recent game that is deployed like that is The Ascent, which deservedly got into a lot of shit over it, because the Gamepass version runs poorly compared to the non-sandboxed version on Steam. Likewise, other games that have done this suffer for it and publishers shy away from it, just how aggressive DRM gets a lot of pushback and publishers either don't include it or are forced to remove it post launch. That's why I'm not really worried about this tech "spilling" to single player games to protect MTX or anything like that, but I'd really really really like to see it deployed as aggressively as physically possible in online competitive games.
      - foerbert 5y ago
        I think it's probably the correct argument to use. As you pointed out, what the vast majority of gamers will respond to is performance. In order to get performance, you have to start cutting other areas like graphics. However, those are other important aspects - maybe particularly to marketing. The reason it's not palatable enough to be widespread is because of it's technical limitations. If you throw enough resources at the matter to remove those limitations, you won't see all the pressure you're mentioning that keep companies from making maximal use of this kind of tech in all games all the time. I'm pretty comfortable erring on the side of caution here. Cheaters are rather annoying, but at least it's a relatively contained problem with a fairly wide range of options for how I want to respond to it. Worst case, I can go try to find a smaller community or even just go play another game. Meanwhile, most every game being fully locked down in all the ways... I can't really do jack about that.
- mminer237 5y ago
  They could do that regardless. Anti-cheat already exists in many forms. They just don't because it adds work for little gain.
  - VortexDream 5y ago
    They could, but if Microsoft provides a native sandbox that publishers can default into without extra effort that effectively protects "their" property from meddling by nosy end-users, they absolutely will. It'll become a standard instead of some fringe practice. Right now the only real options are Denuvo and server-side processing. Microsoft is in a position now with W11 to change that in a fundamental way.
voldacar 5y ago
No thanks. If I can't cheat without a program knowing, I'm not really in control of my computer.
- Spivak 5y ago
  That’s kinda the point? Anti-cheat systems, DRM, and consoles are a way for software publishers to extend their trust boundary to your computer. You’re effectively lending out your hardware as edge computing to run the publisher’s software (i.e. the game or video player) in a way they can be reasonably sure it’s running unmodified. I actually find this to be pretty darn reasonable.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    It's not reasonable so long as your computer is used for more than just running their game. Which is almost always the case. If people want anti-cheats so much for competitive online gaming, demand better consoles that can actually be on par with PC. We don't need this kind of stuff on an open platform.
  - voldacar 5y ago
    I have to disagree. Anytime my computer does something I disagree with, or tries to prevent me from being completely in command of it, that's a bug at best and malware at worst.
CoolGuySteve 5y ago
Windows should suspend background services and liquidate more physical memory for the game anyways. ie: Just get out of the fucking way. Anticheat would just be icing on the cake of a dedicated game mode.
fulafel 5y ago
It only works for XBox (for a while, before it's broken on each xbox generation) because the hardware security is focused against the owner of the device gaining control.
withinrafael 5y ago
Windows 10 has anti-cheat built in but it's not documented or documented as part of the Xbox SDK that requires an NDA. See Settings > Gaming > Game Monitor.

by rafale 5y ago

908B64B197 5y ago

Ironically, in XBox OS I'm pretty sure there's not a big distinction between usermode and kernel mode.

zeusk 5y ago
There is, it's windows with a different shell since 2013
Arainach 5y ago
Everything is very much separated. It's actually a series of OSes running in a hypervisor. http://meseec.ce.rit.edu/551-projects/fall2016/3-4.pdf http://meseec.ce.rit.edu/551-projects/fall2016/3-4.pdf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quLa6kzzra0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quLa6kzzra0 (for software discussion check around the 19:00 mark but the whole talk is incredible)

VortexDream 5y ago

How about no? This will just lead these companies to implement anti-cheat to protect the "integrity" of their single player games (and their MTX) as well. Say goodbye to mods and other forms of benign game hacking (particularly hacks that fix games like Dark Souls).

divbzero 5y ago
Would it be in a game company’s interest to implement anti-cheat for single player games? Mods and other forms of benign game hacking increase the popularity and longevity of games which presumably benefit profitability.
- grp000 5y ago
  I don't think it's a question of "would", it's a question of "why", since that's what's going on right now. You can point to single player paid cosmetics as a profiteering aspect. Greedy executives who care about short-term quarterly sales numbers for bonuses and stock influencing maybe aswell? I wouldn't consider myself knowledgeable of the game industry, but that's one of my bets.
- krono 5y ago
  EA and Rockstar banned people from Battlefield 5 multiplayer and GTA online for having modded their single player games. Google for a few minutes and you'll come across plenty of horror stories and news items. But of course the real reason they would love to prevent anyone from tampering with the game is so they can sell more single player cheats such as experience booster packs.
  - maccard 5y ago
    They do? I googled it and it's full of "I accidentally left my mods on and connected to GTAO and got banned", not " I was banned for playing modded single player games"
    - krono 5y ago
      Yeah, listed some random hits for you below. I don't personally play either game, but from what I've come across on the subject over the years, publishers seem to be a lot less difficult about it today compared to a few years ago. I recall reading about them denying a ban was due to mod use when they were wrong, being ridiculously vague about what modding was and what wasn't allowed, refusing to fully restore a player's character even after a ban was rescinded, etc. https://www.pcgamer.com/gta-online-players-report-multiple-unfair-bans-following-latest-update/ https://www.pcgamer.com/gta-online-players-report-multiple-u... https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/g139nu/eas_volunteer_mods_are_banning_and_silencing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/g139nu/eas_volunt... Interesting edge case: https://www.pcgamer.com/gtav-modders-reportedly-banned-for-creating-their-own-online-realm/ https://www.pcgamer.com/gtav-modders-reportedly-banned-for-c...
gambiting 5y ago
Rampant cheating in online FPS games is a problem right now. I've had more games ruined by cheaters than I can count. So how about yes, let's focus on fixing the problem at hand, and if it's used for something else(like single player games) then I'll complain about it. Right now developers have my full support to use whatever methods they can to make sure the hackers stay out. The game can boot into its own OS for all I care.
- VortexDream 5y ago
  By the time it becomes a problem, it'll be too late to reverse. You think publishers will willingly give up the ability lock down their games on PCs? It's been their dream for decades. I'd rather not give up what we can do with the software we've paid for (and I don't care what some piece of crap ToS says I can or cannot do with the software), just so you get less cheaters in online games.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    But that's really not a great place to use this argument - this isn't surveillance infrastructure or encryption backdoors where yes, once it's built a) it will be used for nefarious purposes b) it's really hard to get rid of. Game sandboxing is already very easy to achieve(at least on windows) and doesn't require any special software to be developed or deployed. It's all part of the Microsoft GDK and is already used - a recent game that is deployed like that is The Ascent, which deservedly got into a lot of shit over it, because the Gamepass version runs poorly compared to the non-sandboxed version on Steam. Likewise, other games that have done this suffer for it and publishers shy away from it, just how aggressive DRM gets a lot of pushback and publishers either don't include it or are forced to remove it post launch. That's why I'm not really worried about this tech "spilling" to single player games to protect MTX or anything like that, but I'd really really really like to see it deployed as aggressively as physically possible in online competitive games.
    - foerbert 5y ago
      I think it's probably the correct argument to use. As you pointed out, what the vast majority of gamers will respond to is performance. In order to get performance, you have to start cutting other areas like graphics. However, those are other important aspects - maybe particularly to marketing. The reason it's not palatable enough to be widespread is because of it's technical limitations. If you throw enough resources at the matter to remove those limitations, you won't see all the pressure you're mentioning that keep companies from making maximal use of this kind of tech in all games all the time. I'm pretty comfortable erring on the side of caution here. Cheaters are rather annoying, but at least it's a relatively contained problem with a fairly wide range of options for how I want to respond to it. Worst case, I can go try to find a smaller community or even just go play another game. Meanwhile, most every game being fully locked down in all the ways... I can't really do jack about that.
mminer237 5y ago
They could do that regardless. Anti-cheat already exists in many forms. They just don't because it adds work for little gain.
- VortexDream 5y ago
  They could, but if Microsoft provides a native sandbox that publishers can default into without extra effort that effectively protects "their" property from meddling by nosy end-users, they absolutely will. It'll become a standard instead of some fringe practice. Right now the only real options are Denuvo and server-side processing. Microsoft is in a position now with W11 to change that in a fundamental way.

voldacar 5y ago

No thanks. If I can't cheat without a program knowing, I'm not really in control of my computer.

Spivak 5y ago
That’s kinda the point? Anti-cheat systems, DRM, and consoles are a way for software publishers to extend their trust boundary to your computer. You’re effectively lending out your hardware as edge computing to run the publisher’s software (i.e. the game or video player) in a way they can be reasonably sure it’s running unmodified. I actually find this to be pretty darn reasonable.
- int_19h 5y ago
  It's not reasonable so long as your computer is used for more than just running their game. Which is almost always the case. If people want anti-cheats so much for competitive online gaming, demand better consoles that can actually be on par with PC. We don't need this kind of stuff on an open platform.
- voldacar 5y ago
  I have to disagree. Anytime my computer does something I disagree with, or tries to prevent me from being completely in command of it, that's a bug at best and malware at worst.

CoolGuySteve 5y ago

Windows should suspend background services and liquidate more physical memory for the game anyways. ie: Just get out of the fucking way. Anticheat would just be icing on the cake of a dedicated game mode.

fulafel 5y ago

It only works for XBox (for a while, before it's broken on each xbox generation) because the hardware security is focused against the owner of the device gaining control.

withinrafael 5y ago

Windows 10 has anti-cheat built in but it's not documented or documented as part of the Xbox SDK that requires an NDA. See Settings > Gaming > Game Monitor.