4 ms·

I think the 6502 was in its disk drive IIRC. I always wondered in those days why the disk drives for 8-bit computers were so crazy expensive. In Holland they c

I think the 6502 was in its disk drive IIRC. I always wondered in those days why the disk drives for 8-bit computers were so crazy expensive. In Holland they cost more than the computers they were meant for. But only later I learned that they were basically another whole computer themselves. Plus the drive mechanism of course which also wasn't cheap (but not nearly as expensive to warrant the high price). It was the same for the Atari 800XL I had, I never owned a commodore 64.

cbm-vic-20 5y ago
Here's a demo running directly on the 1541 disk drive. It generates video by hacking the serial cable that's usually used to connect to the computer, and audio from the drive motors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zprSxCMlECA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zprSxCMlECA
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Haha, not surprised this was possible at all. But I am surprised someone spent the time in 2021 to make this. Well done!
  - ngcc_hk 5y ago
    We have breadboarding (ben eater and someone basically do a sort of os to ease the pain of doing rom etc check YouTube) and many just arudino mega hacker (one of this but there are many : https://www.instructables.com/6502-Minimal-Computer-with-Arduino-MEGA/ https://www.instructables.com/6502-Minimal-Computer-with-Ard...). And if not hardware easy6502 is a very good software assembler and simulator using JavaScript and canvas no less Real hacker spirits alive.
retrac 5y ago
It's all the odder when you consider the Apple II. It came out before any of those other home machines, and yet had the cheapest floppy disk storage from 1978 onward. That was largely due to Steve Woz's brilliant disk controller design, which did away with everything but some simple glue logic and a couple ROM chips, lifting everything else in software. Of course, the Apple II had real expansion slots, obviating the need for using a serial connection, too. From what I can tell, while the Apple II family had a much higher up-front cost, the more serious you were about computing, the more the low-priced home machines with expensive peripherals worked against you in the long run.
- zwieback 5y ago
  I'd agree with that. The case size, open design, accesible FW, etc. made it really easy to add custom HW to the Apple ][, I got a lot of joy out of mine. I have to admit to being a bit jealous of the C64 and Atari kids with their better gaming capability.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    > and yet had the cheapest floppy disk storage from 1978 onward. OTOH, the time-critical hack that allowed it also made it nearly impossible for Apple to upgrade the II without breaking backwards compatibility. The only Apple II with a faster 6502 is the //c+, and that because it has the crazy Zip Chip acceleration logic on the motherboard.
vidarh 5y ago
Yes, the 1541 used a 6502. They're compatible enough you can drop a 6510 into it with no problems (I tested that, to my parents great despair). You can also swap the IO chips I think, with various effects (you at least can drop the Amiga CIA chips into a C64 - you lose the realtime clock nobody uses, but gain timers). Putting a 6502 into a C64 may or may not work for some values of work or not at all - I don't recall what the default for the bank switching would be, but the tape drive certainly wouldn't work (the gpio lines on the 6510 is used for bank switching the ROM, and for the tape). But it should be quite easy to make it work except for the tape drive. You just need to ensure the right voltage on 3 pins for the ROM bank switching (various software that expect to be able to change it will fail though)
rbanffy 5y ago
> I always wondered in those days why the disk drives for 8-bit computers were so crazy expensive. In Holland they cost more than the computers they were meant for. The mechanics were also somewhat expensive. In Brazil, an Apple II drive was often as expensive as an Apple II clone. What makes the intelligent drives a great idea is how easy it is to emulate them - you emulate a nice protocol. When you have to emulate, say, an Apple II drive, you need to emulate the delays the drive mechanics introduce, as well as the head electronics, because the Apple II's 6502 is reading the head and assembling the bits. That's also why accelerating an Apple II requires you to slow it down for a longer time every time it accesses the IO region - because the disk needs to revolve in the exact time the 6502 takes to run some amount of code. With an intelligent peripheral, it doesn't matter you don't wait several seconds between commands, as long as you only issue them at the required speeds.

cbm-vic-20 5y ago

Here's a demo running directly on the 1541 disk drive. It generates video by hacking the serial cable that's usually used to connect to the computer, and audio from the drive motors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zprSxCMlECA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zprSxCMlECA

GekkePrutser 5y ago
Haha, not surprised this was possible at all. But I am surprised someone spent the time in 2021 to make this. Well done!
- ngcc_hk 5y ago
  We have breadboarding (ben eater and someone basically do a sort of os to ease the pain of doing rom etc check YouTube) and many just arudino mega hacker (one of this but there are many : https://www.instructables.com/6502-Minimal-Computer-with-Arduino-MEGA/ https://www.instructables.com/6502-Minimal-Computer-with-Ard...). And if not hardware easy6502 is a very good software assembler and simulator using JavaScript and canvas no less Real hacker spirits alive.

retrac 5y ago

It's all the odder when you consider the Apple II. It came out before any of those other home machines, and yet had the cheapest floppy disk storage from 1978 onward. That was largely due to Steve Woz's brilliant disk controller design, which did away with everything but some simple glue logic and a couple ROM chips, lifting everything else in software. Of course, the Apple II had real expansion slots, obviating the need for using a serial connection, too. From what I can tell, while the Apple II family had a much higher up-front cost, the more serious you were about computing, the more the low-priced home machines with expensive peripherals worked against you in the long run.

zwieback 5y ago
I'd agree with that. The case size, open design, accesible FW, etc. made it really easy to add custom HW to the Apple ][, I got a lot of joy out of mine. I have to admit to being a bit jealous of the C64 and Atari kids with their better gaming capability.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  > and yet had the cheapest floppy disk storage from 1978 onward. OTOH, the time-critical hack that allowed it also made it nearly impossible for Apple to upgrade the II without breaking backwards compatibility. The only Apple II with a faster 6502 is the //c+, and that because it has the crazy Zip Chip acceleration logic on the motherboard.

vidarh 5y ago

Yes, the 1541 used a 6502. They're compatible enough you can drop a 6510 into it with no problems (I tested that, to my parents great despair). You can also swap the IO chips I think, with various effects (you at least can drop the Amiga CIA chips into a C64 - you lose the realtime clock nobody uses, but gain timers). Putting a 6502 into a C64 may or may not work for some values of work or not at all - I don't recall what the default for the bank switching would be, but the tape drive certainly wouldn't work (the gpio lines on the 6510 is used for bank switching the ROM, and for the tape). But it should be quite easy to make it work except for the tape drive. You just need to ensure the right voltage on 3 pins for the ROM bank switching (various software that expect to be able to change it will fail though)

rbanffy 5y ago

> I always wondered in those days why the disk drives for 8-bit computers were so crazy expensive. In Holland they cost more than the computers they were meant for. The mechanics were also somewhat expensive. In Brazil, an Apple II drive was often as expensive as an Apple II clone. What makes the intelligent drives a great idea is how easy it is to emulate them - you emulate a nice protocol. When you have to emulate, say, an Apple II drive, you need to emulate the delays the drive mechanics introduce, as well as the head electronics, because the Apple II's 6502 is reading the head and assembling the bits. That's also why accelerating an Apple II requires you to slow it down for a longer time every time it accesses the IO region - because the disk needs to revolve in the exact time the 6502 takes to run some amount of code. With an intelligent peripheral, it doesn't matter you don't wait several seconds between commands, as long as you only issue them at the required speeds.