4 ms·

> Particularly when it laughs off the entire concept of individuals feeling their own dopamine levels I agree the article wasn't great, but that line was clear

by SamBam 5y ago

> Particularly when it laughs off the entire concept of individuals feeling their own dopamine levels I agree the article wasn't great, but that line was clearly saying that the subjective experience of "feeling a dopamine rush" isn't at all evidence of a dopamine rush, since we have no idea what the individual neurotransmitters feel like in our brain (unless we've been somehow trained to recognize them, perhaps, through very controlled experiments with dopamine inhibitors). Saying "oh I know dopamine must be important because I can feel it" is, indeed, absurd. We can feel a rush. We can feel desire. We can feel satiation. And perhaps we have been told that these things relate to dopamine. So now we say we can feel dopamine. This doesn't add more evidence that it is dopamine.

the_other 5y ago
We say all the same things about adrenaline, caffeine, sugar, tryptamines and phenetholamines: no-one seems to mind. Why can't we say the same about dopamine?
- clairity 5y ago
  yah, i have two little 'dopamine vending machines' in the form of a dog and a cat. it doesn't really matter if it's literally (and only) dopamine, but that the term grounds a repeatable and consistent sensation related to a dopamine cascade (otherwise we would use a more closely related term instead).
- warent 5y ago
  Maybe it's just the people I surround myself with but I've never once heard someone say they're feeling a tryptamine or phenetholamine rush. As far as the other three things (caffeine, sugar, adrenaline) I think the argument is we have a better understanding and direct experience of those vs. dopamine. You can drink a cup of coffee and feel obviously caffeinated day-and-night difference from pre-coffee, but you cannot drink a cup of XYZ and feel obviously dopamined.
  - shawnz 5y ago
    Anecdotally I think I do have an idea of how a "serotonin rush" feels. There's a particular feeling I get most noticeably when seeing the sunshine outdoors on an early morning that's pretty similar to certain feelings I've had from psychedelic drugs. There is a known connection between sunlight exposure and serotonin release so it seems like a reasonable explanation to me. There are definitely some obvious commonalities among the feelings produced by dopaminergic drugs as well which are similar to the feelings I naturally experience when working on a big project.
    - svachalek 5y ago
      I think I tend to run a little low on seratonin and I know the exact feeling you're talking about. It's a gentle, pleasant sense that everything is going to be ok, that somehow still feels oddly artificial. Usually happens in bright sunlight, but rarely in other situations where it's really hard to figure out what triggered it. Adrenaline is one that is more common for me, and impossible to mistake. I can literally taste it.
    - __blockcipher__ 5y ago
      Sunlight exposure causes nitric oxide release (which itself will have downstream effects on neurotransmitters). That's probably what you're feeling if I had to guess. FWIW the best way to get a feeling for what serotonin feels like is doing MDMA since it dumps massive amounts of serotonin out. It dumps plenty of dopamine too - it wouldn't be nearly as fun without that - but the unique "rolly" feeling is very attributable to serotonin. Not advising people take MDMA just to figure out what serotonin feels like, but for those who have it's very helpful to sort of "recognize" what different neurotransmitters feel like
    - SamBam 5y ago
      > There is a known connection between sunlight exposure and serotonin release so it seems like a reasonable explanation to me. Indeed, but I guess what I'm saying is that the feeling you experience isn't further evidence that it's serotonin. Your connection between the feeling and it being serotonin is purely based on the studies that have been done. Those studies are the evidence. The qualitative feeling we get doesn't add to the body of evidence. That is what the original author was arguing against. People arguing with her online saying "I feel a dopamine rush, therefore it's dopamine that I'm experiencing. You can't tell me it's some other neurotransmitter."
- bobthechef 5y ago
  > We say all the same things about adrenaline The distinction here I think is that adrenaline is equivocal and really is just synonymous with "rush" because we've attributed the rush to adrenaline. But it could be another example of the same error and thus something we ought not, strictly speaking, say if our aim is to be accurate. I also don't think the way "dopamine" is used is quite the same as "adrenaline". The former feels like it's being used in a more technical and explanatory way.
wincy 5y ago
I guess for me as someone who takes Adderall it feels less weird to say “dopamine rush” than “amphetamine rush”. I’ve said that once or twice and people laugh, but in the way like you’re an insane person.

by SamBam 5y ago

the_other 5y ago

We say all the same things about adrenaline, caffeine, sugar, tryptamines and phenetholamines: no-one seems to mind. Why can't we say the same about dopamine?

clairity 5y ago
yah, i have two little 'dopamine vending machines' in the form of a dog and a cat. it doesn't really matter if it's literally (and only) dopamine, but that the term grounds a repeatable and consistent sensation related to a dopamine cascade (otherwise we would use a more closely related term instead).
warent 5y ago
Maybe it's just the people I surround myself with but I've never once heard someone say they're feeling a tryptamine or phenetholamine rush. As far as the other three things (caffeine, sugar, adrenaline) I think the argument is we have a better understanding and direct experience of those vs. dopamine. You can drink a cup of coffee and feel obviously caffeinated day-and-night difference from pre-coffee, but you cannot drink a cup of XYZ and feel obviously dopamined.
- shawnz 5y ago
  Anecdotally I think I do have an idea of how a "serotonin rush" feels. There's a particular feeling I get most noticeably when seeing the sunshine outdoors on an early morning that's pretty similar to certain feelings I've had from psychedelic drugs. There is a known connection between sunlight exposure and serotonin release so it seems like a reasonable explanation to me. There are definitely some obvious commonalities among the feelings produced by dopaminergic drugs as well which are similar to the feelings I naturally experience when working on a big project.
  - svachalek 5y ago
    I think I tend to run a little low on seratonin and I know the exact feeling you're talking about. It's a gentle, pleasant sense that everything is going to be ok, that somehow still feels oddly artificial. Usually happens in bright sunlight, but rarely in other situations where it's really hard to figure out what triggered it. Adrenaline is one that is more common for me, and impossible to mistake. I can literally taste it.
  - __blockcipher__ 5y ago
    Sunlight exposure causes nitric oxide release (which itself will have downstream effects on neurotransmitters). That's probably what you're feeling if I had to guess. FWIW the best way to get a feeling for what serotonin feels like is doing MDMA since it dumps massive amounts of serotonin out. It dumps plenty of dopamine too - it wouldn't be nearly as fun without that - but the unique "rolly" feeling is very attributable to serotonin. Not advising people take MDMA just to figure out what serotonin feels like, but for those who have it's very helpful to sort of "recognize" what different neurotransmitters feel like
  - SamBam 5y ago
    > There is a known connection between sunlight exposure and serotonin release so it seems like a reasonable explanation to me. Indeed, but I guess what I'm saying is that the feeling you experience isn't further evidence that it's serotonin. Your connection between the feeling and it being serotonin is purely based on the studies that have been done. Those studies are the evidence. The qualitative feeling we get doesn't add to the body of evidence. That is what the original author was arguing against. People arguing with her online saying "I feel a dopamine rush, therefore it's dopamine that I'm experiencing. You can't tell me it's some other neurotransmitter."
bobthechef 5y ago
> We say all the same things about adrenaline The distinction here I think is that adrenaline is equivocal and really is just synonymous with "rush" because we've attributed the rush to adrenaline. But it could be another example of the same error and thus something we ought not, strictly speaking, say if our aim is to be accurate. I also don't think the way "dopamine" is used is quite the same as "adrenaline". The former feels like it's being used in a more technical and explanatory way.

wincy 5y ago

I guess for me as someone who takes Adderall it feels less weird to say “dopamine rush” than “amphetamine rush”. I’ve said that once or twice and people laugh, but in the way like you’re an insane person.