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This viewpoint is popular here, I think we all see that, but I find it to almost always come from the point of view of a technically competent power user who ca

This viewpoint is popular here, I think we all see that, but I find it to almost always come from the point of view of a technically competent power user who can 1) make use of the expanded capability and 2) have the knowledge and instincts to protect themselves in the face of reduced or no guardrails. That is not the profile of the average iPhone user. For the layperson (90+% of iPhone users) I find the argument unconvincing. They don't understand how to protect themselves. And what software is it that they would substantially benefit from if only it were not for a manufacturer-controlled app store monopoly? Don't we all have memories of looking at a relatives computer and finding half a dozen browser toolbars and some mysterious impossible-to-uninstall programs running on startup?

eptcyka 5y ago
Why can't they make side-loading work the same way loading custom ROMs used to work on Android - very impractical setup phase, but allows for ultimate freedom to those who need it? You just need to have the setup be impractical enough for the layperson so that those who don't understand how to protect themselves don't stumble into a situation where they have to. Don't create a false dichotomy here. Also, most of people I know of don't side-load apps onto their Android devices, and it's still a shitshow security wise. Don't conflate side-loading with bad security. I find it ridiculous that to run a bit of iOS code I have to spend hours chasing down someone with access to authorize my signing keys. It's a fruit company laptop using a fruit company IDE and a fruit company mobile device, yet I still have to jump through all of these hoops to run my own code on devices that I own?
- zzyzxd 5y ago
  Back in the days when iOS jailbreaking was popular, there were people who would take 10 bucks to jailbreak my grandma's iPad for her.
- massysett 5y ago
  The instant some hugely popular app (Fortnite?) needs to be installed this way, the app maker will make videos or tutorials on how to jump through the hoops. This will normalize the practice so that people also do it for a “fart app” that is really something more nefarious. Next thing you know, we’re right back to how Windows was, with a bunch of browser toolbars and now the need to sideload an antivirus app, which itself will drown the phone in glitches. No thanks.
  - RussianCow 5y ago
    This is already possible on Android, and yet in practice, all major apps are available on the Google Play Store.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Then don't install Fortnite on your iPhone.
  - eptcyka 5y ago
    A consumer centric solution to this specific problem is to just allow Epic to sell Fortnite on the app store and stop holding them to ransom.
RussianCow 5y ago
But isn't the whole point that the average layperson is never going to sideload in the first place? If you make it just difficult enough, very few people that aren't tech-savvy will dare to try it, but then the rest of us can enjoy the benefits.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  But isn't the whole point that the average layperson is never going to sideload in the first place? If Facebook pulls its app from the Apple store and only releases it on a third-party store, those laypeople will follow. And much of the noise and content in the "sideloading" campaign for iOS comes from Facebook and similar companies with a monetary interest in getting around Apple's rules.
  - RussianCow 5y ago
    If this is actually the case, why does Facebook keep their app on the Play Store? I'm almost certain Facebook would not choose to take the path with more resistance for its users, because a significant percentage of them will simply not install the app.
    - reaperducer 5y ago
      Because it can spy on people if they install from the Play Store. Facebook has spent millions on full-page newspaper ads this year attacking Apple's App Store anti-spying policies. It hasn't said peep one about Google.
donmcronald 5y ago
> For the layperson (90+% of iPhone users) I find the argument unconvincing. They don't understand how to protect themselves. I think this is by design. Stupid users make good consumers, so big tech has ignored improving, dumbed down, and removed the tools that would help users understand how to protect themselves. Code signing and identity could be significantly better than it is, but no one wants to invest in improving that industry because it's much more profitable to convince people they need to rely on a huge tech company like Apple, Google, or Microsoft to be a curator. The reality for me is that identity is worse on most of those systems and they end up being great for reputation laundering. App stores are basically the equivalent of 3rd party sellers on Amazon. Apple, Google, and Microsoft all lend credibility to bad actors when they allow them in their app stores. Personally I don't even use the app stores for discovery. I look online for recommendations and a decent company presence. Basically I try to judge a company by how much money it looks like they spent on their brand. Using a dictionary word .com? That's reliable. Using supergameofthelegendsprohd.top? No thanks.
jmull 5y ago
> And what software is it that they would substantially benefit from if only it were not for a manufacturer-controlled app store monopoly? Look at all the software that is available for MacOS that is not available for iOS. > Don't we all have memories of looking at a relatives computer and finding half a dozen browser toolbars and some mysterious impossible-to-uninstall programs running on startup? No one is suggesting running Windows 98 and IE 6 on phones. It's weird, we literally have an apple-to-apple comparison with MacOS and iOS and instead we're dredging up a straw man of old software designed to be insecure.

eptcyka 5y ago

Why can't they make side-loading work the same way loading custom ROMs used to work on Android - very impractical setup phase, but allows for ultimate freedom to those who need it? You just need to have the setup be impractical enough for the layperson so that those who don't understand how to protect themselves don't stumble into a situation where they have to. Don't create a false dichotomy here. Also, most of people I know of don't side-load apps onto their Android devices, and it's still a shitshow security wise. Don't conflate side-loading with bad security. I find it ridiculous that to run a bit of iOS code I have to spend hours chasing down someone with access to authorize my signing keys. It's a fruit company laptop using a fruit company IDE and a fruit company mobile device, yet I still have to jump through all of these hoops to run my own code on devices that I own?

zzyzxd 5y ago
Back in the days when iOS jailbreaking was popular, there were people who would take 10 bucks to jailbreak my grandma's iPad for her.
massysett 5y ago
The instant some hugely popular app (Fortnite?) needs to be installed this way, the app maker will make videos or tutorials on how to jump through the hoops. This will normalize the practice so that people also do it for a “fart app” that is really something more nefarious. Next thing you know, we’re right back to how Windows was, with a bunch of browser toolbars and now the need to sideload an antivirus app, which itself will drown the phone in glitches. No thanks.
- RussianCow 5y ago
  This is already possible on Android, and yet in practice, all major apps are available on the Google Play Store.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Then don't install Fortnite on your iPhone.
- eptcyka 5y ago
  A consumer centric solution to this specific problem is to just allow Epic to sell Fortnite on the app store and stop holding them to ransom.

RussianCow 5y ago

But isn't the whole point that the average layperson is never going to sideload in the first place? If you make it just difficult enough, very few people that aren't tech-savvy will dare to try it, but then the rest of us can enjoy the benefits.

reaperducer 5y ago
But isn't the whole point that the average layperson is never going to sideload in the first place? If Facebook pulls its app from the Apple store and only releases it on a third-party store, those laypeople will follow. And much of the noise and content in the "sideloading" campaign for iOS comes from Facebook and similar companies with a monetary interest in getting around Apple's rules.
- RussianCow 5y ago
  If this is actually the case, why does Facebook keep their app on the Play Store? I'm almost certain Facebook would not choose to take the path with more resistance for its users, because a significant percentage of them will simply not install the app.
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    Because it can spy on people if they install from the Play Store. Facebook has spent millions on full-page newspaper ads this year attacking Apple's App Store anti-spying policies. It hasn't said peep one about Google.

donmcronald 5y ago

> For the layperson (90+% of iPhone users) I find the argument unconvincing. They don't understand how to protect themselves. I think this is by design. Stupid users make good consumers, so big tech has ignored improving, dumbed down, and removed the tools that would help users understand how to protect themselves. Code signing and identity could be significantly better than it is, but no one wants to invest in improving that industry because it's much more profitable to convince people they need to rely on a huge tech company like Apple, Google, or Microsoft to be a curator. The reality for me is that identity is worse on most of those systems and they end up being great for reputation laundering. App stores are basically the equivalent of 3rd party sellers on Amazon. Apple, Google, and Microsoft all lend credibility to bad actors when they allow them in their app stores. Personally I don't even use the app stores for discovery. I look online for recommendations and a decent company presence. Basically I try to judge a company by how much money it looks like they spent on their brand. Using a dictionary word .com? That's reliable. Using supergameofthelegendsprohd.top? No thanks.

jmull 5y ago

> And what software is it that they would substantially benefit from if only it were not for a manufacturer-controlled app store monopoly? Look at all the software that is available for MacOS that is not available for iOS. > Don't we all have memories of looking at a relatives computer and finding half a dozen browser toolbars and some mysterious impossible-to-uninstall programs running on startup? No one is suggesting running Windows 98 and IE 6 on phones. It's weird, we literally have an apple-to-apple comparison with MacOS and iOS and instead we're dredging up a straw man of old software designed to be insecure.