4 ms·

How does government benefit from teaching critical thinking in government schools? If there's no good answer to that, it won't happen.

whatshisface 5y ago
The people running our society have more to lose from getting replaced by some kind of taliban-equivalent than they have to lose from inoculating the population against propaganda at the expense of limiting their own power in some cases. This is a plan where they can keep their money and their authority, and they'd only have to sacrifice a small amount of the effectiveness of the big papers, which are not effective anymore anyway.
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  The problem with your reasoning here is that your two options are replacement by "a taliban-equivalent", or a slight limitation of their power. I think you've vastly overestimated the risk of a naïve population to government while underestimating the benefit. In my view, the U.S. government's propaganda system is essential to its survival in its current form. It uses it to maintain the war industry, to justify its spending power, to preserve the stability of the currency, to ensure the election of tame officials — there's a lot to lose.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    The stability of the currency is mainly decided by countries outside the reach of the US's internal propaganda, because of the enormous debts and reserve currency status. I agree that a population which wouldn't go for Qanon would also make them quit invading countries in the middle east and south america, but depending on how this crazy business plays out, leaving Iran alone may be a small price for them to pay. I hate to invoke Godwin's law, but business people loved Hitler all around the world right up until his propaganda machine shut out their influence and he started invading the other half of their markets and supply chains. If the people running our country have learned anything from history they will quit encouraging irrationality and gullibility some time before the curtains close, so to speak.
    - JasonFruit 5y ago
      Maybe you are right. I'm not as confident as you that the U.S. government has learned from history, though; it spends a lot of time explaining that it has made historically-attested consequences of its actions impossible. But I'm not a fan in general, and that may color my perceptions.
- lisael 5y ago
  GP told about "a government". You rephrased to "The people running our society". If we accept the fact that this people is, simply put, the rich and the giant corporations... they have a lot to gain from some kind of fascist society. That's the heart of fascism: a strong government serving the rich. They do have to gain a lot from the masses ignorance, irrationality and short sight. Not that I'm saying they all adhere to fascism, people may have principles that contradict their most direct interest.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    Multinational corporations don't like nationalism. I think the idea that big corporations benefit from fascism is an interesting one, but it doesn't square with capitalism's need to keep borders open to trade and capital flow. If you're proposing that someone is going to invent a non-nationalist version of fascism, that's again an interesting idea, but I'm having a hard time imagining it.
    - nitrogen 5y ago
      If it's successful it won't get a name, it won't be a "thing," it will just be the new normal.
kwhitefoot 5y ago
The assumption that all governments are at best always hostile is not something shared by everyone in the world. it seems to be a reliable indicator that the person expressing it is a US citizen or at least resident in the US. Isn't it debilitating to live in a place suffused with this opinion? Does it become self-fulfilling? And to answer the question: the government is composed of people like you; critical thinking helps the government see how to improve society just as it helps you to improve your own life and prevent you from falling for scams.
- thephyber 5y ago
  > Isn't it debilitating to live in a place suffused with this opinion? Does it become self-fulfilling? One of the 2 major political parties in the USA has pushed this opinion for as long as I’ve been alive. They deny federal government any opportunity to improve then point at government as an example of why it doesn’t improve peoples’ lives. I hope other still-functioning governments learn from the institutional failures of the USA in the 1970s and 1980s so as to avoid following the same path.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  When you say "the government is composed of people like you," I imagine you are talking about the low to mid echelons of the civil service. That's right, but they don't set policy. Corporations work together with politicians and reliable upper-echelon civil servants to set US policy, and the media works together with them to prevent the use of democracy. It's impossible for a US citizen to believe anything else if they have but the most shallow awareness of even the foreign policy alone of the past 70 years. It's universal knowledge; you will hear it whether you are talking to a conservative christian or a communist, although the particular culturally appropriate way of phrasing it will change. You will even hear it from comfortable urban professionals, although couched in a way that makes it look like they're not excessively upset about it. I have heard a lot of opinions, some of them bonkers, but there is one I have never heard; I challenge you to find one single American who believes that Iraq was invaded due to popular demand.
  - goatlover 5y ago

whatshisface 5y ago

The people running our society have more to lose from getting replaced by some kind of taliban-equivalent than they have to lose from inoculating the population against propaganda at the expense of limiting their own power in some cases. This is a plan where they can keep their money and their authority, and they'd only have to sacrifice a small amount of the effectiveness of the big papers, which are not effective anymore anyway.

JasonFruit 5y ago
The problem with your reasoning here is that your two options are replacement by "a taliban-equivalent", or a slight limitation of their power. I think you've vastly overestimated the risk of a naïve population to government while underestimating the benefit. In my view, the U.S. government's propaganda system is essential to its survival in its current form. It uses it to maintain the war industry, to justify its spending power, to preserve the stability of the currency, to ensure the election of tame officials — there's a lot to lose.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  The stability of the currency is mainly decided by countries outside the reach of the US's internal propaganda, because of the enormous debts and reserve currency status. I agree that a population which wouldn't go for Qanon would also make them quit invading countries in the middle east and south america, but depending on how this crazy business plays out, leaving Iran alone may be a small price for them to pay. I hate to invoke Godwin's law, but business people loved Hitler all around the world right up until his propaganda machine shut out their influence and he started invading the other half of their markets and supply chains. If the people running our country have learned anything from history they will quit encouraging irrationality and gullibility some time before the curtains close, so to speak.
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    Maybe you are right. I'm not as confident as you that the U.S. government has learned from history, though; it spends a lot of time explaining that it has made historically-attested consequences of its actions impossible. But I'm not a fan in general, and that may color my perceptions.
lisael 5y ago
GP told about "a government". You rephrased to "The people running our society". If we accept the fact that this people is, simply put, the rich and the giant corporations... they have a lot to gain from some kind of fascist society. That's the heart of fascism: a strong government serving the rich. They do have to gain a lot from the masses ignorance, irrationality and short sight. Not that I'm saying they all adhere to fascism, people may have principles that contradict their most direct interest.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  Multinational corporations don't like nationalism. I think the idea that big corporations benefit from fascism is an interesting one, but it doesn't square with capitalism's need to keep borders open to trade and capital flow. If you're proposing that someone is going to invent a non-nationalist version of fascism, that's again an interesting idea, but I'm having a hard time imagining it.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    If it's successful it won't get a name, it won't be a "thing," it will just be the new normal.

kwhitefoot 5y ago

The assumption that all governments are at best always hostile is not something shared by everyone in the world. it seems to be a reliable indicator that the person expressing it is a US citizen or at least resident in the US. Isn't it debilitating to live in a place suffused with this opinion? Does it become self-fulfilling? And to answer the question: the government is composed of people like you; critical thinking helps the government see how to improve society just as it helps you to improve your own life and prevent you from falling for scams.

thephyber 5y ago
> Isn't it debilitating to live in a place suffused with this opinion? Does it become self-fulfilling? One of the 2 major political parties in the USA has pushed this opinion for as long as I’ve been alive. They deny federal government any opportunity to improve then point at government as an example of why it doesn’t improve peoples’ lives. I hope other still-functioning governments learn from the institutional failures of the USA in the 1970s and 1980s so as to avoid following the same path.
whatshisface 5y ago
When you say "the government is composed of people like you," I imagine you are talking about the low to mid echelons of the civil service. That's right, but they don't set policy. Corporations work together with politicians and reliable upper-echelon civil servants to set US policy, and the media works together with them to prevent the use of democracy. It's impossible for a US citizen to believe anything else if they have but the most shallow awareness of even the foreign policy alone of the past 70 years. It's universal knowledge; you will hear it whether you are talking to a conservative christian or a communist, although the particular culturally appropriate way of phrasing it will change. You will even hear it from comfortable urban professionals, although couched in a way that makes it look like they're not excessively upset about it. I have heard a lot of opinions, some of them bonkers, but there is one I have never heard; I challenge you to find one single American who believes that Iraq was invaded due to popular demand.
- goatlover 5y ago