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> You're buying an expensive entry in someone else's database Nope, you're buying a non-fungible token on a public ledger where the data and association with a

> You're buying an expensive entry in someone else's database Nope, you're buying a non-fungible token on a public ledger where the data and association with a specific address (or addresses) can be read without permission. This ownership and permission can then be moved around (potentially for large sums - potentially for near-zero amounts) by means that are independent of the client used. So for instance an NFT could give me access to an exclusive Discord channel (the client here being a Discord bot) and I could potentially sell or otherwise pass that onto someone else who wants access. The ownership of that token could also afford me access to, for instance, buying another token on another smart contract (the client here being another smart contract). That they are commonly linked to metadata associated with JPEGs is really missing the opportunity here. Furthermore, since everything's on a public ledger the much-stated money laundering is surprisingly difficult. And in fact multiple people have been caught out by this (a simple example being one of OpenSea's PM's wallets showing that they were frontrunning; another is VCs front-running their portfolio companies' air drops). That NFTs are often exchanged between bot accounts and multiple wallets (often tracked back to known individuals) to pump prices is also well-known and visible on the blockchain. Whether or not you think expensive JPEGs are 2020s' Beanie Babies, it's hard to imagine a programmer on HN not being able to think of interesting non-JPEG things to do with an open source, public and permissionless ledger/database. EDIT: disclosure - I have some JPEG NFTs. They weren't super expensive to me but I bought them so I had skin in the game that forced me to investigate this market rather than shouting "but money laundering!" from the sidelines. I'm glad I did this. Via getting into the weeds I've discovered a vibrant and super interesting ecosystem of developers, entrepreneurs, cryptographers and opportunities I'd never have known about otherwise. Are my JPEGs worth it? Doubt it. But the experience has been super interesting so far.

schnebbau 5y ago
You just used 4 paragraphs to say the same thing as the text you quoted.
- JofArnold 5y ago
  How is this "someone else's database"? It's literally a 100% public permissionless ledger. If I store an NFT in Facebook's database is that not "someone else's database" by definition.
  - WJW 5y ago
    That the database has been implemented as a ledger does not make it "not a database". And since you don't own the database, it belongs to someone else. In the case of (almost) every cryptocurrency, it collectively belongs to the miners.
  - chinathrow 5y ago
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: If that "public" permissionless ledger is not there anylonger, your NFTs is at zero face value. Zero. Yes, it's absolutely someone else's database, if not even worse.
  - playpause 5y ago
    Isn’t that a type of a database? And is it yours?
  - danpalmer 5y ago
    It's on a public ledger, but the data is in a proprietary format. Anyone can read and validate if they want, but equally they could put up their own NFT for the same thing, and/or choose to not accept the legitimacy of that NFT's publisher. In a way it's proprietary semantics in public data. I'm sure there are open standards in the formats of NFTs that make them less proprietary, but sticking to these is optional, rather than necessitated by participation like the ledger is. Perhaps an analogy... this is an "I got the vaccine" sticker, not a vaccination record. It's publicly visible, yes, and you can check that the sticker looks like it's supposed to, but as a proof of vaccination it's pretty weak as anyone can create them and hand them out on their own terms.
DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
> it's hard to imagine a programmer on HN not being able to think of interesting non-JPEG things to do with an open source, public and permissionless ledger/database. You underestimate the extent at which working-for-a-living has utterly destroyed my sense of imagination and ability to have an original thought. It’s depressing. Very much so.
morelisp 5y ago
> it's hard to imagine a programmer on HN not being able to think of interesting non-JPEG things to do with an open source, public and permissionless ledger The history of cryptocurrency is exclusively people trying to come up with ideas for this extremely interesting class of data structures, yet consistently only reaching variants of "fraud." (And, those people who just jump immediately to fraud without much thinking.)
- JofArnold 5y ago
  There's some truth in what you say. But then same also applies to a lot of tech startups for instance (we could pick many but let's say Thaneros)... in fact it's true of the wider financial system. Just check out the latest HSBC news in the last week. The problem is that people find it easy to jump to "money-laundering! beanie-babies!" and not spend the time thinking about what they might want to do with the tech. Strikes me as a bit curmudgeonly versus the optimistic, open-minded and innovative roots of HN...
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  > fraud Link?
  - chinathrow 5y ago
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-26/tether-executives-said-to-face-criminal-probe-into-bank-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-26/tether-ex...
fergie 5y ago
How _could_ an NFT give me exclusive access to a Discord channel? I see how it could let me read some sort of access token that I could use, but I dont see how it would prevent others from seeing/using that same token, particularly those who have previously owned it.
- leppr 5y ago
  You sign a message containing your Discord username with the address that's registered as owner of said NFT. The bot then approves your Discord account, while also watching for changes in NFT ownership to revoke your access if you transfer the token out.
- CyrusL 5y ago
  The implementation is usually cryptographically signing a message from the account that owns the NFT.
- meheleventyone 5y ago
  It's pretty common to do this for Patreon rewards so it's not really much different to how you'd approach that except instead of connecting to their API it does it using the records on chain. You'd run a bot or similar on Discord that would grant you a role to access the channel and it would use your wallet to verify your identity (ala public key crypto) and the ownership of the NFT by your wallet to verify the permission to join. Most of the time you're a centralized thing anyway in this case so the NFTs don't really add much (unless you want users to be able to trade access) even if you wanted to take payment via crypto-currencies.

schnebbau 5y ago

You just used 4 paragraphs to say the same thing as the text you quoted.

JofArnold 5y ago
How is this "someone else's database"? It's literally a 100% public permissionless ledger. If I store an NFT in Facebook's database is that not "someone else's database" by definition.
- WJW 5y ago
  That the database has been implemented as a ledger does not make it "not a database". And since you don't own the database, it belongs to someone else. In the case of (almost) every cryptocurrency, it collectively belongs to the miners.
- chinathrow 5y ago
  I've said it before and I'll say it again: If that "public" permissionless ledger is not there anylonger, your NFTs is at zero face value. Zero. Yes, it's absolutely someone else's database, if not even worse.
- playpause 5y ago
  Isn’t that a type of a database? And is it yours?
- danpalmer 5y ago
  It's on a public ledger, but the data is in a proprietary format. Anyone can read and validate if they want, but equally they could put up their own NFT for the same thing, and/or choose to not accept the legitimacy of that NFT's publisher. In a way it's proprietary semantics in public data. I'm sure there are open standards in the formats of NFTs that make them less proprietary, but sticking to these is optional, rather than necessitated by participation like the ledger is. Perhaps an analogy... this is an "I got the vaccine" sticker, not a vaccination record. It's publicly visible, yes, and you can check that the sticker looks like it's supposed to, but as a proof of vaccination it's pretty weak as anyone can create them and hand them out on their own terms.

DaiPlusPlus 5y ago

> it's hard to imagine a programmer on HN not being able to think of interesting non-JPEG things to do with an open source, public and permissionless ledger/database. You underestimate the extent at which working-for-a-living has utterly destroyed my sense of imagination and ability to have an original thought. It’s depressing. Very much so.

morelisp 5y ago

> it's hard to imagine a programmer on HN not being able to think of interesting non-JPEG things to do with an open source, public and permissionless ledger The history of cryptocurrency is exclusively people trying to come up with ideas for this extremely interesting class of data structures, yet consistently only reaching variants of "fraud." (And, those people who just jump immediately to fraud without much thinking.)

JofArnold 5y ago
There's some truth in what you say. But then same also applies to a lot of tech startups for instance (we could pick many but let's say Thaneros)... in fact it's true of the wider financial system. Just check out the latest HSBC news in the last week. The problem is that people find it easy to jump to "money-laundering! beanie-babies!" and not spend the time thinking about what they might want to do with the tech. Strikes me as a bit curmudgeonly versus the optimistic, open-minded and innovative roots of HN...
DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
> fraud Link?
- chinathrow 5y ago
  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-26/tether-executives-said-to-face-criminal-probe-into-bank-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-26/tether-ex...

fergie 5y ago

How _could_ an NFT give me exclusive access to a Discord channel? I see how it could let me read some sort of access token that I could use, but I dont see how it would prevent others from seeing/using that same token, particularly those who have previously owned it.

leppr 5y ago
You sign a message containing your Discord username with the address that's registered as owner of said NFT. The bot then approves your Discord account, while also watching for changes in NFT ownership to revoke your access if you transfer the token out.
CyrusL 5y ago
The implementation is usually cryptographically signing a message from the account that owns the NFT.
meheleventyone 5y ago
It's pretty common to do this for Patreon rewards so it's not really much different to how you'd approach that except instead of connecting to their API it does it using the records on chain. You'd run a bot or similar on Discord that would grant you a role to access the channel and it would use your wallet to verify your identity (ala public key crypto) and the ownership of the NFT by your wallet to verify the permission to join. Most of the time you're a centralized thing anyway in this case so the NFTs don't really add much (unless you want users to be able to trade access) even if you wanted to take payment via crypto-currencies.