9 ms·

And how do you suppose we figure out who has natural immunity and thus doesn’t have to get vaccinated? Do we trust people to tell us (if they even know for sure

And how do you suppose we figure out who has natural immunity and thus doesn’t have to get vaccinated? Do we trust people to tell us (if they even know for sure that the fever/cough they had a year ago was covid)? That won’t work, I know people who have forged vaccine cards because a talk radio host told them the vaccine will make them sterile or whatever. Only sure fire way would be to first test for antibodies, which requires an additional appointment and test result, followed by the vaccine anyway, if it comes back negative. So that would likely be even more profitable for the drug/health companies.

colordrops 5y ago
A record of positive infection. I'm in LA county and they keep a database. How do you make sure people aren't faking vaccination status, as you say? A positive PCR test on public record is in fact more trustworthy.
- jliptzin 5y ago
  That works in places that kept good records, but I have to imagine the vast majority of counties don't have those records. Plus I'm sure many people got infected and stayed home with mild/moderate cases and never got tested (because they knew they had it and/or didn't want to risk spreading to others), so there would be no record for them anyway. Or their cases were so early on in the pandemic that there were no tests available or the ones that were available were very unreliable (I remember the early ones only had ~50% accuracy)
  - colordrops 5y ago
    Easy, don't excuse people who don't have a verifiable record or from a test with a known high false positive rate. What's so hard about that? Airlines have figured it out, limiting which tests you can use. Why can't public health officials?
  - lborsato 5y ago
    My family had Covid in January 2020. All of the now known symptoms but there were no tests available yet. Our doctor later confirmed it based on symptoms a couple of months later but we were not eligible for tests then. A year and a half later we would certainly have B-cells but antibodies would likely have faded. So what do people in that situation do?
    - colordrops 5y ago
      Get vaccinated. This isn't a political two-sided issue.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      Given that there's significant overlap between COVID symptoms and those of other common winter diseases, you really can't "confirm based on symptoms". (My son had a bout of severe pneumonia around the same time. We wondered, too. Not COVID, it turns out.) Therein lies a significant problem with "I don't need the vaccine, I have natural immunity!"
    - yryan 5y ago
      https://www.t-detect.com/ https://www.t-detect.com/
    - evilpotatoes 5y ago
      T-detect can apparently read your t-cells, so it would be good for a while I would say.
- foolinaround 5y ago
  Cheapest way is to donate blood/plasma via the Red Cross. You do the society a favor, and the app they provide lets you know if you continue to have covid19 antibodies.
  - manwe150 5y ago
    So that nobody gets angry, be aware that they've stopped doing this test quite recently. Still good to do: I’ve now done it several times this year, and my first time was selfishly motivated in part by the free antibody test. You could even be doing yourself or a friend a favor, you never know!
- viraptor 5y ago
  > A record of positive infection. The tests used in most places have significant false positives/negatives on a population level. You may think you were infected when you weren't. With vaccination you know whether you were vaccinated.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    Except you don't, because lots of people are faking vaccination status. In fact it's probably less reliable than a positive PCR test. It's extremely common to fake vaccination cards among the anti-vaxx community.
    - nieve 5y ago
      _You_ know whether you've been vaccinated even if you're lying to others about it. Are you presuming now that antivaxxers are convincing themselves they've been vaccinated? I guess it's vaguely plausible.
      - colordrops 5y ago
        No I'm suggesting that there shouldn't be a mandate for those who can reliably prove they have had covid.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  You're in LA County, so you should be aware of https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/ https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/ That's just as trustworthy. Probably more since what it asserts is less variable than how long you maintain antibodies.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    No, you can't prove a negative. People can fake vaccine status from other locations. You can't fake a PCR test result in a public DB.
    - lostcolony 5y ago
      ...what are you even talking about with "you can't prove a negative?" The link I provided "is an electronic vaccination record drawn from the data stored in the California immunization registry." It doesn't accept user submissions; it only accepts data from recognized health organizations. The website allows you to put in your name and birthdate and get a QR code that can be scanned and will take you back to the website, showing dates you were vaccinated. It requires someone confirming that the QR code is directing them to the correct website, and confirm name and birthdate, but that's far more available to actually check than a PCR test. Meaning no need to rely on easily faked vaccination cards; you instead ask for a QR code, scan it, and confirm it took you to the government site, with a name and birthdate that matches some government issued picture ID. Still 'beatable', if you have good fake ID for a person who has been vaccinated, but just as good in 'security' as relying on a PCR test (since it's still ultimately pulling from a publicly readable, only privately writeable DB), and probably a better assertion than "PCR test", since it can work for everyone, and tells you the date of vaccination (whereas date of antibodies being detected doesn't tell you anything about whether they still have natural immunity now).
      - colordrops 5y ago
        What I mean is that unless you only accept vaccination status if it's in a public database, any one can fake being vaccinated. Many if not most jurisdictions do not record it, and a piece of paper is all you need. And you can't force people to get it again if it's not on record, because the vaccines aren't approved for arbitrary numbers of shots. The anti-vaxx community is rife with fake covid vaccine cards. So, you can't prove a negative, that being that someone has not been vaccinated. But you can prove that you had covid.
amluto 5y ago
In principle, one could get a rapid antibody test and, if negative, get a vaccine a few minutes later. For vaccines for which the vaccine has few side effects, this is, AFAICT, not usually considered worthwhile — providers seem to prefer giving an extra MMR dose to people with unknown vaccination status for example. For COVID, at least with current vaccines, maybe it would make sense. (ISTM, based on available data, people who have had COVID ought not to be required to get two doses, but one might be reasonable from a public health perspective.)

colordrops 5y ago

A record of positive infection. I'm in LA county and they keep a database. How do you make sure people aren't faking vaccination status, as you say? A positive PCR test on public record is in fact more trustworthy.

jliptzin 5y ago
That works in places that kept good records, but I have to imagine the vast majority of counties don't have those records. Plus I'm sure many people got infected and stayed home with mild/moderate cases and never got tested (because they knew they had it and/or didn't want to risk spreading to others), so there would be no record for them anyway. Or their cases were so early on in the pandemic that there were no tests available or the ones that were available were very unreliable (I remember the early ones only had ~50% accuracy)
- colordrops 5y ago
  Easy, don't excuse people who don't have a verifiable record or from a test with a known high false positive rate. What's so hard about that? Airlines have figured it out, limiting which tests you can use. Why can't public health officials?
- lborsato 5y ago
  My family had Covid in January 2020. All of the now known symptoms but there were no tests available yet. Our doctor later confirmed it based on symptoms a couple of months later but we were not eligible for tests then. A year and a half later we would certainly have B-cells but antibodies would likely have faded. So what do people in that situation do?
  - colordrops 5y ago
    Get vaccinated. This isn't a political two-sided issue.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Given that there's significant overlap between COVID symptoms and those of other common winter diseases, you really can't "confirm based on symptoms". (My son had a bout of severe pneumonia around the same time. We wondered, too. Not COVID, it turns out.) Therein lies a significant problem with "I don't need the vaccine, I have natural immunity!"
  - yryan 5y ago
    https://www.t-detect.com/ https://www.t-detect.com/
  - evilpotatoes 5y ago
    T-detect can apparently read your t-cells, so it would be good for a while I would say.
foolinaround 5y ago
Cheapest way is to donate blood/plasma via the Red Cross. You do the society a favor, and the app they provide lets you know if you continue to have covid19 antibodies.
- manwe150 5y ago
  So that nobody gets angry, be aware that they've stopped doing this test quite recently. Still good to do: I’ve now done it several times this year, and my first time was selfishly motivated in part by the free antibody test. You could even be doing yourself or a friend a favor, you never know!
viraptor 5y ago
> A record of positive infection. The tests used in most places have significant false positives/negatives on a population level. You may think you were infected when you weren't. With vaccination you know whether you were vaccinated.
- colordrops 5y ago
  Except you don't, because lots of people are faking vaccination status. In fact it's probably less reliable than a positive PCR test. It's extremely common to fake vaccination cards among the anti-vaxx community.
  - nieve 5y ago
    _You_ know whether you've been vaccinated even if you're lying to others about it. Are you presuming now that antivaxxers are convincing themselves they've been vaccinated? I guess it's vaguely plausible.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      No I'm suggesting that there shouldn't be a mandate for those who can reliably prove they have had covid.
lostcolony 5y ago
You're in LA County, so you should be aware of https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/ https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov/ That's just as trustworthy. Probably more since what it asserts is less variable than how long you maintain antibodies.
- colordrops 5y ago
  No, you can't prove a negative. People can fake vaccine status from other locations. You can't fake a PCR test result in a public DB.
  - lostcolony 5y ago
    ...what are you even talking about with "you can't prove a negative?" The link I provided "is an electronic vaccination record drawn from the data stored in the California immunization registry." It doesn't accept user submissions; it only accepts data from recognized health organizations. The website allows you to put in your name and birthdate and get a QR code that can be scanned and will take you back to the website, showing dates you were vaccinated. It requires someone confirming that the QR code is directing them to the correct website, and confirm name and birthdate, but that's far more available to actually check than a PCR test. Meaning no need to rely on easily faked vaccination cards; you instead ask for a QR code, scan it, and confirm it took you to the government site, with a name and birthdate that matches some government issued picture ID. Still 'beatable', if you have good fake ID for a person who has been vaccinated, but just as good in 'security' as relying on a PCR test (since it's still ultimately pulling from a publicly readable, only privately writeable DB), and probably a better assertion than "PCR test", since it can work for everyone, and tells you the date of vaccination (whereas date of antibodies being detected doesn't tell you anything about whether they still have natural immunity now).
    - colordrops 5y ago
      What I mean is that unless you only accept vaccination status if it's in a public database, any one can fake being vaccinated. Many if not most jurisdictions do not record it, and a piece of paper is all you need. And you can't force people to get it again if it's not on record, because the vaccines aren't approved for arbitrary numbers of shots. The anti-vaxx community is rife with fake covid vaccine cards. So, you can't prove a negative, that being that someone has not been vaccinated. But you can prove that you had covid.

amluto 5y ago

In principle, one could get a rapid antibody test and, if negative, get a vaccine a few minutes later. For vaccines for which the vaccine has few side effects, this is, AFAICT, not usually considered worthwhile — providers seem to prefer giving an extra MMR dose to people with unknown vaccination status for example. For COVID, at least with current vaccines, maybe it would make sense. (ISTM, based on available data, people who have had COVID ought not to be required to get two doses, but one might be reasonable from a public health perspective.)