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> Is that a fair definition? No, it is not. The comparisons were "Person with bachelors degree" and "Person with bachelors degree if they took summers off unpa

> Is that a fair definition? No, it is not. The comparisons were "Person with bachelors degree" and "Person with bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid". In the context of teacher salaries, the phrase "summer off" always refers to having vacation time, not doing unpaid work. Eg, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/time_off#English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/time_off#English has "I've got some time off next week, so maybe we could meet up then?" with synonyms of "holiday" and "vacation". Or, consider someone doing the single-person start-up thing, self-employed, not taking any income until things (hopefully) get off the ground ... then finding out that business model isn't successful, so finds a job. Is that person meaningfully "off" while working 15 hour days for a year? > Presumably this is a mechanism for less efficient teachers to realize their predicament and self-select out of the occupation. If you recall, the title is "‘Exhausted and underpaid’: teachers across the US are leaving their jobs" -- that's self-selecting out of the occupation. But that doesn't mean that those who are left are more efficient. What if the people who are left are those who don't care about doing more than the bare minimum their job is worth, knowing it's hard to get fired because there aren't enough teachers available to replace them? You get what you pay for.

adolph 5y ago
"Person with bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid" > In this context "off" refers to time not spent in paid employment. I don't see an appreciable difference between the two statements. Is your assertion that seasonal unemployment should be treated as a paid vacation? Maybe it would be more accurate to describe teaching as a seasonal occupation rather than having "summers off." There are some similarities to seasonal labor underemployment in that the periods in which a seasonal firm doesn't operate are "A period of time where one is not required to work." Seasonal labor would fit that definition and also goes beyond in that work in that field is largely not available. I write "largely" since teacher acquaintances are able to find some work when schools are closed by teaching summer school, grading AP exams and various other work that requires a professional teacher but occurs outside the school year. The critical part of separating "seasonal employment" from "paid vacation" is the employee's volition in setting the time period and duration of the time away from work. In many non-seasonal occupations a vacation may be scheduled by the employee and it is generally important for not all employees to be not working at the same time. In the case of teaching, there are summer and other work closure periods which more closely resemble seasonal employment or maybe some manufacturing jobs that have periodic furloughs because the individual worker cannot choose when those periods occur. > What if the people who are left are those who don't care about doing more than the bare minimum their job is worth Performing to the required standard and not getting burned out seems like a positive vision for a workforce. It is especially important for one with little in the way promotional hierarchy to incentivize going above the standard in order to achieve higher renumeration.
- eesmith 5y ago
  If you have a 35 hour work week and I have a 40 hour work week, where neither of us have work obligations off the clock, then you have more time off work then I do, yes? I don't know what you mean by "should be treated as a paid vacation". The comparison is for yearly income made by someone who is a teacher (which requires a bachelor degree), vs. yearly income for the median someone who has a bachelor degree pro-rated to ~10 months on the assumption that that person has no work obligations for 2 months. Call that "paid vacation" or call it "seasonal unemployment" - it doesn't affect my argument. I do not believe there is any real meaning in comparing those two incomes in order to establish if the teacher is over- or under-paid. > teacher acquaintances are able to find some work when schools are closed by Yes, one of the other issues I have with the comparison (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28826659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28826659 ) is that I couldn't tell if the $62,870/year for a HS teacher included that additional income, which would make the presumptive time-off-for-summer comparison even less relevant. > Performing to the required standard A.K.A. work-to-rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule even lists teachers as an example. Ha! Here's a guide for teachers on what to do/not do in a work-to-rule action! https://taaaconline.org/pdf/wtr-kit/WORK%20TO%20RULE.pdf https://taaaconline.org/pdf/wtr-kit/WORK%20TO%20RULE.pdf I have no problems viewing this as a valid labor action against a bad work environment. I object to willcipriano's analysis arguing that teachers are being paid roughly market rates for their jobs.
  - adolph 5y ago
    > If you have a 35 hour work week and I have a 40 hour work week, where neither of us have work obligations off the clock, then you have more time off work then I do, yes? Yes, agreed. And if our earnings are equal then I am effectively being compensated better for my time. On the other hand, if I earn .875 to your one, then we are being compensated equally. Likewise, if person A works 10/12ths the time of person B and earns 10/12ths the wage, then they are also compensated equally. As I understand your claim, for teachers uniquely the other 2/12ths are spent performing non-compensated activities that are necessary to remain a member of the profession in good standing or to satisfy requirements of a particular workplace such as extra-curricular activities or off-clock administrative work. As a result, it is wrong to discount the average salary of a teacher by 2/12ths. I don't agree with this analysis and I have addressed both topics. For professional licensing, many occupations have continuing education coursework and examinations and even many workplaces outside of a particular profession require the same. Teaching does not seem unique to me in this respect. Do you consider the professional licensing of teachers to be radically different than the many other occupations with requirements for a bachelors degree and licensing? Teachers may also engage in labor outside their regular duties that may or may not be completely voluntary and compensated. For the purpose of this discussion I will focus on involuntary and uncompensated labor. To the extent and degree that this exists outside of catchup work due to unproductive workers (such as grading papers after hours, preparing curricula over the summer, etc), I have not seen quantified or compared to other workplaces. Thus it would be difficult to compare to other occupations with requirements for a bachelors degree and licensing. Do you have quantification for this claim of involuntary uncompensated labor?

adolph 5y ago

"Person with bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid" > In this context "off" refers to time not spent in paid employment. I don't see an appreciable difference between the two statements. Is your assertion that seasonal unemployment should be treated as a paid vacation? Maybe it would be more accurate to describe teaching as a seasonal occupation rather than having "summers off." There are some similarities to seasonal labor underemployment in that the periods in which a seasonal firm doesn't operate are "A period of time where one is not required to work." Seasonal labor would fit that definition and also goes beyond in that work in that field is largely not available. I write "largely" since teacher acquaintances are able to find some work when schools are closed by teaching summer school, grading AP exams and various other work that requires a professional teacher but occurs outside the school year. The critical part of separating "seasonal employment" from "paid vacation" is the employee's volition in setting the time period and duration of the time away from work. In many non-seasonal occupations a vacation may be scheduled by the employee and it is generally important for not all employees to be not working at the same time. In the case of teaching, there are summer and other work closure periods which more closely resemble seasonal employment or maybe some manufacturing jobs that have periodic furloughs because the individual worker cannot choose when those periods occur. > What if the people who are left are those who don't care about doing more than the bare minimum their job is worth Performing to the required standard and not getting burned out seems like a positive vision for a workforce. It is especially important for one with little in the way promotional hierarchy to incentivize going above the standard in order to achieve higher renumeration.

eesmith 5y ago
If you have a 35 hour work week and I have a 40 hour work week, where neither of us have work obligations off the clock, then you have more time off work then I do, yes? I don't know what you mean by "should be treated as a paid vacation". The comparison is for yearly income made by someone who is a teacher (which requires a bachelor degree), vs. yearly income for the median someone who has a bachelor degree pro-rated to ~10 months on the assumption that that person has no work obligations for 2 months. Call that "paid vacation" or call it "seasonal unemployment" - it doesn't affect my argument. I do not believe there is any real meaning in comparing those two incomes in order to establish if the teacher is over- or under-paid. > teacher acquaintances are able to find some work when schools are closed by Yes, one of the other issues I have with the comparison (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28826659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28826659 ) is that I couldn't tell if the $62,870/year for a HS teacher included that additional income, which would make the presumptive time-off-for-summer comparison even less relevant. > Performing to the required standard A.K.A. work-to-rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule even lists teachers as an example. Ha! Here's a guide for teachers on what to do/not do in a work-to-rule action! https://taaaconline.org/pdf/wtr-kit/WORK%20TO%20RULE.pdf https://taaaconline.org/pdf/wtr-kit/WORK%20TO%20RULE.pdf I have no problems viewing this as a valid labor action against a bad work environment. I object to willcipriano's analysis arguing that teachers are being paid roughly market rates for their jobs.
- adolph 5y ago
  > If you have a 35 hour work week and I have a 40 hour work week, where neither of us have work obligations off the clock, then you have more time off work then I do, yes? Yes, agreed. And if our earnings are equal then I am effectively being compensated better for my time. On the other hand, if I earn .875 to your one, then we are being compensated equally. Likewise, if person A works 10/12ths the time of person B and earns 10/12ths the wage, then they are also compensated equally. As I understand your claim, for teachers uniquely the other 2/12ths are spent performing non-compensated activities that are necessary to remain a member of the profession in good standing or to satisfy requirements of a particular workplace such as extra-curricular activities or off-clock administrative work. As a result, it is wrong to discount the average salary of a teacher by 2/12ths. I don't agree with this analysis and I have addressed both topics. For professional licensing, many occupations have continuing education coursework and examinations and even many workplaces outside of a particular profession require the same. Teaching does not seem unique to me in this respect. Do you consider the professional licensing of teachers to be radically different than the many other occupations with requirements for a bachelors degree and licensing? Teachers may also engage in labor outside their regular duties that may or may not be completely voluntary and compensated. For the purpose of this discussion I will focus on involuntary and uncompensated labor. To the extent and degree that this exists outside of catchup work due to unproductive workers (such as grading papers after hours, preparing curricula over the summer, etc), I have not seen quantified or compared to other workplaces. Thus it would be difficult to compare to other occupations with requirements for a bachelors degree and licensing. Do you have quantification for this claim of involuntary uncompensated labor?