5 ms·

> "Off" seems to mean different things to you and me. I don't think it is reconcilable. I'll offer: In this context "off" refers to time not spent in paid empl

by adolph 5y ago

> "Off" seems to mean different things to you and me. I don't think it is reconcilable. I'll offer: In this context "off" refers to time not spent in paid employment. Is that a fair definition? My assertion: Spending time outside of paid employment to be able to retain paid employment or to gain improved compensation is not uncommon. My reference to a rounding error was not well written. The rounding error has to do with the difference between the effect of licensing on compensation and the natural variation in compensation between occupations. If license effect on compensation is small, then the comparison of teaching to other occupations requiring a bachelors degree without respect to licensing is valid. Some of the difference in variability has to do with the standard compensation models different occupations chose in the early stage of the profession's development. As an example, nursing is principally compensated hourly rather than by salary. Outside of productivity improvements, when additional duties are required then there are choices of: less valuable duties are delegated to lower skilled workers, or less valuable duties are depreciated, or the amount of time budgeted increases. For teachers on a salary any time spent on duties outside classroom hours is effectively a pay cut. Presumably this is a mechanism for less efficient teachers to realize their predicament and self-select out of the occupation.

eesmith 5y ago
> Is that a fair definition? No, it is not. The comparisons were "Person with bachelors degree" and "Person with bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid". In the context of teacher salaries, the phrase "summer off" always refers to having vacation time, not doing unpaid work. Eg, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/time_off#English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/time_off#English has "I've got some time off next week, so maybe we could meet up then?" with synonyms of "holiday" and "vacation". Or, consider someone doing the single-person start-up thing, self-employed, not taking any income until things (hopefully) get off the ground ... then finding out that business model isn't successful, so finds a job. Is that person meaningfully "off" while working 15 hour days for a year? > Presumably this is a mechanism for less efficient teachers to realize their predicament and self-select out of the occupation. If you recall, the title is "‘Exhausted and underpaid’: teachers across the US are leaving their jobs" -- that's self-selecting out of the occupation. But that doesn't mean that those who are left are more efficient. What if the people who are left are those who don't care about doing more than the bare minimum their job is worth, knowing it's hard to get fired because there aren't enough teachers available to replace them? You get what you pay for.
- adolph 5y ago
  "Person with bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid" > In this context "off" refers to time not spent in paid employment. I don't see an appreciable difference between the two statements. Is your assertion that seasonal unemployment should be treated as a paid vacation? Maybe it would be more accurate to describe teaching as a seasonal occupation rather than having "summers off." There are some similarities to seasonal labor underemployment in that the periods in which a seasonal firm doesn't operate are "A period of time where one is not required to work." Seasonal labor would fit that definition and also goes beyond in that work in that field is largely not available. I write "largely" since teacher acquaintances are able to find some work when schools are closed by teaching summer school, grading AP exams and various other work that requires a professional teacher but occurs outside the school year. The critical part of separating "seasonal employment" from "paid vacation" is the employee's volition in setting the time period and duration of the time away from work. In many non-seasonal occupations a vacation may be scheduled by the employee and it is generally important for not all employees to be not working at the same time. In the case of teaching, there are summer and other work closure periods which more closely resemble seasonal employment or maybe some manufacturing jobs that have periodic furloughs because the individual worker cannot choose when those periods occur. > What if the people who are left are those who don't care about doing more than the bare minimum their job is worth Performing to the required standard and not getting burned out seems like a positive vision for a workforce. It is especially important for one with little in the way promotional hierarchy to incentivize going above the standard in order to achieve higher renumeration.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    If you have a 35 hour work week and I have a 40 hour work week, where neither of us have work obligations off the clock, then you have more time off work then I do, yes? I don't know what you mean by "should be treated as a paid vacation". The comparison is for yearly income made by someone who is a teacher (which requires a bachelor degree), vs. yearly income for the median someone who has a bachelor degree pro-rated to ~10 months on the assumption that that person has no work obligations for 2 months. Call that "paid vacation" or call it "seasonal unemployment" - it doesn't affect my argument. I do not believe there is any real meaning in comparing those two incomes in order to establish if the teacher is over- or under-paid. > teacher acquaintances are able to find some work when schools are closed by Yes, one of the other issues I have with the comparison (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28826659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28826659 ) is that I couldn't tell if the $62,870/year for a HS teacher included that additional income, which would make the presumptive time-off-for-summer comparison even less relevant. > Performing to the required standard A.K.A. work-to-rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule even lists teachers as an example. Ha! Here's a guide for teachers on what to do/not do in a work-to-rule action! https://taaaconline.org/pdf/wtr-kit/WORK%20TO%20RULE.pdf https://taaaconline.org/pdf/wtr-kit/WORK%20TO%20RULE.pdf I have no problems viewing this as a valid labor action against a bad work environment. I object to willcipriano's analysis arguing that teachers are being paid roughly market rates for their jobs.

by adolph 5y ago

eesmith 5y ago

> Is that a fair definition? No, it is not. The comparisons were "Person with bachelors degree" and "Person with bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid". In the context of teacher salaries, the phrase "summer off" always refers to having vacation time, not doing unpaid work. Eg, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/time_off#English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/time_off#English has "I've got some time off next week, so maybe we could meet up then?" with synonyms of "holiday" and "vacation". Or, consider someone doing the single-person start-up thing, self-employed, not taking any income until things (hopefully) get off the ground ... then finding out that business model isn't successful, so finds a job. Is that person meaningfully "off" while working 15 hour days for a year? > Presumably this is a mechanism for less efficient teachers to realize their predicament and self-select out of the occupation. If you recall, the title is "‘Exhausted and underpaid’: teachers across the US are leaving their jobs" -- that's self-selecting out of the occupation. But that doesn't mean that those who are left are more efficient. What if the people who are left are those who don't care about doing more than the bare minimum their job is worth, knowing it's hard to get fired because there aren't enough teachers available to replace them? You get what you pay for.

adolph 5y ago
"Person with bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid" > In this context "off" refers to time not spent in paid employment. I don't see an appreciable difference between the two statements. Is your assertion that seasonal unemployment should be treated as a paid vacation? Maybe it would be more accurate to describe teaching as a seasonal occupation rather than having "summers off." There are some similarities to seasonal labor underemployment in that the periods in which a seasonal firm doesn't operate are "A period of time where one is not required to work." Seasonal labor would fit that definition and also goes beyond in that work in that field is largely not available. I write "largely" since teacher acquaintances are able to find some work when schools are closed by teaching summer school, grading AP exams and various other work that requires a professional teacher but occurs outside the school year. The critical part of separating "seasonal employment" from "paid vacation" is the employee's volition in setting the time period and duration of the time away from work. In many non-seasonal occupations a vacation may be scheduled by the employee and it is generally important for not all employees to be not working at the same time. In the case of teaching, there are summer and other work closure periods which more closely resemble seasonal employment or maybe some manufacturing jobs that have periodic furloughs because the individual worker cannot choose when those periods occur. > What if the people who are left are those who don't care about doing more than the bare minimum their job is worth Performing to the required standard and not getting burned out seems like a positive vision for a workforce. It is especially important for one with little in the way promotional hierarchy to incentivize going above the standard in order to achieve higher renumeration.
- eesmith 5y ago
  If you have a 35 hour work week and I have a 40 hour work week, where neither of us have work obligations off the clock, then you have more time off work then I do, yes? I don't know what you mean by "should be treated as a paid vacation". The comparison is for yearly income made by someone who is a teacher (which requires a bachelor degree), vs. yearly income for the median someone who has a bachelor degree pro-rated to ~10 months on the assumption that that person has no work obligations for 2 months. Call that "paid vacation" or call it "seasonal unemployment" - it doesn't affect my argument. I do not believe there is any real meaning in comparing those two incomes in order to establish if the teacher is over- or under-paid. > teacher acquaintances are able to find some work when schools are closed by Yes, one of the other issues I have with the comparison (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28826659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28826659 ) is that I couldn't tell if the $62,870/year for a HS teacher included that additional income, which would make the presumptive time-off-for-summer comparison even less relevant. > Performing to the required standard A.K.A. work-to-rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule even lists teachers as an example. Ha! Here's a guide for teachers on what to do/not do in a work-to-rule action! https://taaaconline.org/pdf/wtr-kit/WORK%20TO%20RULE.pdf https://taaaconline.org/pdf/wtr-kit/WORK%20TO%20RULE.pdf I have no problems viewing this as a valid labor action against a bad work environment. I object to willcipriano's analysis arguing that teachers are being paid roughly market rates for their jobs.