6 ms·

being anti-nuclear at times of climate crisis is a moral and intellectual equivalent to being anti-vaccines during the pandemic

prettygood 5y ago
You're judging to quickly without looking at all parameters. The cost of nuclear power has only been rising and the price per kWh is much higher compared to wind or solar. Building cost and time has never been correctly estimated for new plants. Just ask France, UK and Finland. Which resulted in going way over budget. All of this while prices for solar and wind are lowering... Obviously you can't rely solely on wind and solar but at the moment it would make more sense to invest in those solutions compared to nuclear, for some countries.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  every time someone mentions the cost of wind and solar, i remind them of the same point - there are lots of costs that are not borne by wind and solar. The “low” cost is primarily due to their fuel cost being zero and that’s not inherently a bad thing. The problem is in assuming that the current “cost” scales linearly. it does not. Some examples of these costs are balancing, standby, frequency support and so on. At the moment, no “cost” metric for renewables includes these costs. They assume that all energy generated is consumed by the grid and this is increasingly not the case.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > cost of nuclear power has only been rising and the price per kWh is much higher compared to wind or solar Do we have numbers from China? They're actually pursuing this technology. The West, largely, is not. I'd thus be hesitant about comparing numbers from a stagnated industry from one with active R&D.
- rllearneratwork 5y ago
  wind and solar are heavily subsidized and nuclear is, arguably, over regulated despite being statistically the safest source of energy (as measured in deaths / twh)
beders 5y ago
bullshit. If there are cheaper and safer alternatives. being anti-nuclear is common sense.
- rllearneratwork 5y ago
  no one is asking for 100% nuclear. Sure, when sun shines solar makes sense. But it can't satisfy all the needs all the time. Look at California - we are closing our nuclear and buying more electricity from Utah where it is generated using coal and gas. You can't outsource climate change.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- baud147258 5y ago
  are alternatives really cheaper when you need to build more to compensate for the moments when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow?
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Yes, even assuming curtailment, renewables + storage are cheaper than nuclear. EDIT (sources): https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/ https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-... https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/06/28/los-angeles-seeks-record-setting-solar-power-price-under-2%C2%A2-kwh/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/06/28/los-angeles-seeks-rec... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/07/01/new-solar--battery-price-crushes-fossil-fuels-buries-nuclear/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/07/01/new-sola... https://twitter.com/mzjacobson/status/1144654725901504512 https://twitter.com/mzjacobson/status/1144654725901504512 https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/08/09/solar-challenging-nuclear-as-potential-climate-change-solution/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/08/09/solar-challenging-nuc... https://www.utilitydive.com/news/minnesota-study-finds-it-cheaper-to-curtail-solar-than-to-add-storage/546467/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/minnesota-study-finds-it-ch...
    - 5y ago
lostlogin 5y ago
Is it not more like being anti Pfizer?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jacobsenscott 5y ago
Being anti-nuclear is more like being anti-facebook. Nuclear is a giant centralized free-loading subsidized secretive toxic industry. Just like nuclear.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  I think the usual way of phrasing that joke is: "What's the difference between nuclear power and Facebook? One is a giant centralized free-loading subsidized secretive toxic industry, and the other is a way of providing low-carbon electricity."
Zigurd 5y ago
Here is a better analogy: Being pro nuclear is like being anti-vaxx because monoclonal antibodies work. They just cost a large multiple of vaccination.

prettygood 5y ago

You're judging to quickly without looking at all parameters. The cost of nuclear power has only been rising and the price per kWh is much higher compared to wind or solar. Building cost and time has never been correctly estimated for new plants. Just ask France, UK and Finland. Which resulted in going way over budget. All of this while prices for solar and wind are lowering... Obviously you can't rely solely on wind and solar but at the moment it would make more sense to invest in those solutions compared to nuclear, for some countries.

eldaisfish 5y ago
every time someone mentions the cost of wind and solar, i remind them of the same point - there are lots of costs that are not borne by wind and solar. The “low” cost is primarily due to their fuel cost being zero and that’s not inherently a bad thing. The problem is in assuming that the current “cost” scales linearly. it does not. Some examples of these costs are balancing, standby, frequency support and so on. At the moment, no “cost” metric for renewables includes these costs. They assume that all energy generated is consumed by the grid and this is increasingly not the case.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> cost of nuclear power has only been rising and the price per kWh is much higher compared to wind or solar Do we have numbers from China? They're actually pursuing this technology. The West, largely, is not. I'd thus be hesitant about comparing numbers from a stagnated industry from one with active R&D.
rllearneratwork 5y ago
wind and solar are heavily subsidized and nuclear is, arguably, over regulated despite being statistically the safest source of energy (as measured in deaths / twh)

beders 5y ago

bullshit. If there are cheaper and safer alternatives. being anti-nuclear is common sense.

rllearneratwork 5y ago
no one is asking for 100% nuclear. Sure, when sun shines solar makes sense. But it can't satisfy all the needs all the time. Look at California - we are closing our nuclear and buying more electricity from Utah where it is generated using coal and gas. You can't outsource climate change.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
baud147258 5y ago
are alternatives really cheaper when you need to build more to compensate for the moments when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Yes, even assuming curtailment, renewables + storage are cheaper than nuclear. EDIT (sources): https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/ https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-... https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/06/28/los-angeles-seeks-record-setting-solar-power-price-under-2%C2%A2-kwh/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/06/28/los-angeles-seeks-rec... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/07/01/new-solar--battery-price-crushes-fossil-fuels-buries-nuclear/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/07/01/new-sola... https://twitter.com/mzjacobson/status/1144654725901504512 https://twitter.com/mzjacobson/status/1144654725901504512 https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/08/09/solar-challenging-nuclear-as-potential-climate-change-solution/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/08/09/solar-challenging-nuc... https://www.utilitydive.com/news/minnesota-study-finds-it-cheaper-to-curtail-solar-than-to-add-storage/546467/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/minnesota-study-finds-it-ch...
  - 5y ago

lostlogin 5y ago

Is it not more like being anti Pfizer?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jacobsenscott 5y ago

Being anti-nuclear is more like being anti-facebook. Nuclear is a giant centralized free-loading subsidized secretive toxic industry. Just like nuclear.

dane-pgp 5y ago
I think the usual way of phrasing that joke is: "What's the difference between nuclear power and Facebook? One is a giant centralized free-loading subsidized secretive toxic industry, and the other is a way of providing low-carbon electricity."

Zigurd 5y ago

Here is a better analogy: Being pro nuclear is like being anti-vaxx because monoclonal antibodies work. They just cost a large multiple of vaccination.