6 ms·

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but I'm noticing that some folks can't determine fact from fiction even when presented with data that supports the f

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but I'm noticing that some folks can't determine fact from fiction even when presented with data that supports the facts or makes them irrefutable. No amount of logic, facts, or transparency will be enough for these folks, and while I can appreciate a skeptic, some of these people are beyond basic help and need professional guidance.

specialist 5y ago
Our current epistemological crisis has been decades in the making. The modern No Knowings utterly reject facts, truth, objectivity. Aka Nihilism.
DuskStar 5y ago
This is of course true for people on both sides of the political aisle, but for different subjects.
- mc32 5y ago
  Quite. I watched a debate between Scott Horton and Bill Kristol. Watching Kristol remain steadfast in his position despite all evidence is pretty amazing. Horton wasn’t perfect either but at last he had evidence on his side.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
It certainly does not help that search will cater to whatever it is you are looking for with helpful articles supporting just about any viewpoint. To your point, if there is no helping 'these folks', the logical conclusion is to take guardrails down and let god sort them out. I will admit I am still coming to terms with all this.
mmmpop 5y ago
It feels like a game of political chicken to me. Like, "if you won't trust the voting public enough to give them the whole truth and instead treat them like blubbering fools, how can you--with a straight face--pretend that their ability to pick leaders or vote on actual issues is a correct way to run a country?" So instead of compliance, they'll bring the whole damn thing down in protest. I don't think the plurality of those who refuse the vaccine actively deny the existence of the virus, or even the efficacy and safety of the vaccine. I feel they're just absolutely sick of the hypocrisy and pandering by "leaders" who refuse to lead by example on much of anything. As many before me have said, you'll always have the kooks that deny science but I honest-to-God think those are the minority.
- skyde 5y ago
  the general public are not the one that decide who get a Phd or MD the expert are the one doing it. It make sense that the expert don't trust the general public with health decision. If you are not convinced just head over to https://www.youtube.com/c/ChubbyemuGames/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/ChubbyemuGames/videos
  - mmmpop 5y ago
    Maybe the general public should spend more time electing MDs and PhDs to run the government then? Instead we get bullshitters and grifters who defer to life-long bureaucrats with an MD of a PhD who suck-up to the right people to get the job, regardless of their actual competence. People tend to mistrust government "experts" because the feeling is that if they were better at their jobs, they'd obviously be in the private sector. This isn't always true but many people feel that way, like it or not.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      There are a a dozen and a half physicians in Congress. Their political affiliation may be surprising. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_in_the_United_States_Congress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_in_the_United_State...
rob_c 5y ago
It doesn't help when politicians are lying or lying by omission. At that point those who don't know better don't know where to turn for information. The UK has branded the official death stats as misinformation numerous times in the press and interviews to avoid getting into details of how they screwed up in response to all this... It's not always the fault of those led astray and I'm sure there's a suitable parable about a bad shepherd or something... Someone believing untruths is different to the nutters burning down 5G masts mind, but yes I worry about when misinformation reaches critical mass...
Levitz 5y ago
What about the times in which there was plenty of such data, only for it to be false in the end, say, typical conspiracy turned true like MKULTRA or NSA? Bear with me, not every country has as many people doubting their government, the bottom line in my opinion is that public trust in the government has been eroded so much that this happens and these people are aware that the government is capable of spinning lies that seem completely true, so why believe them at all?
- lovecg 5y ago
  Implicit in this argument is that Americans ever did trust their government. Has that actually ever been the case? I mean the whole country is founded on distrust of government as one of the principles.
rytor718 5y ago
I think in the US our situation was pretty dire from the start in regards to misinformation: the president and his staff were saying a ton of crazy crap from day one, from denial, to downplaying to telling people to effectively drink bleach. Pretty clear cut why we have trust issues right now and people denying any information about Covid at all. I mean the article raises great points, but the US hasn't had that problem, because its' been blatant misinformation with no attempt to tether it to any reality from the start. The trust was never there and I'd love to read more articles about how to repair that. But it has been interesting to see these dynamics described in the article in play out in other Western countries. I have to agree that we have to trust the public, but its conclusion -- that the people will not trust the government otherwise -- is sage. US currently is struggling to claw back any trust. We're in very dire straits. EDIT: formatting.
- k1ko 5y ago
  It's ironic that you seem to be a victim of misinformation yourself. Trump never came close to telling people to drink bleach. https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/07/13/fact-check-did-trump-tell-people-to-drink-bleach-to-kill-coronavirus/113754708/ https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020...

specialist 5y ago

Our current epistemological crisis has been decades in the making. The modern No Knowings utterly reject facts, truth, objectivity. Aka Nihilism.

DuskStar 5y ago

This is of course true for people on both sides of the political aisle, but for different subjects.

mc32 5y ago
Quite. I watched a debate between Scott Horton and Bill Kristol. Watching Kristol remain steadfast in his position despite all evidence is pretty amazing. Horton wasn’t perfect either but at last he had evidence on his side.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

It certainly does not help that search will cater to whatever it is you are looking for with helpful articles supporting just about any viewpoint. To your point, if there is no helping 'these folks', the logical conclusion is to take guardrails down and let god sort them out. I will admit I am still coming to terms with all this.

mmmpop 5y ago

It feels like a game of political chicken to me. Like, "if you won't trust the voting public enough to give them the whole truth and instead treat them like blubbering fools, how can you--with a straight face--pretend that their ability to pick leaders or vote on actual issues is a correct way to run a country?" So instead of compliance, they'll bring the whole damn thing down in protest. I don't think the plurality of those who refuse the vaccine actively deny the existence of the virus, or even the efficacy and safety of the vaccine. I feel they're just absolutely sick of the hypocrisy and pandering by "leaders" who refuse to lead by example on much of anything. As many before me have said, you'll always have the kooks that deny science but I honest-to-God think those are the minority.

skyde 5y ago
the general public are not the one that decide who get a Phd or MD the expert are the one doing it. It make sense that the expert don't trust the general public with health decision. If you are not convinced just head over to https://www.youtube.com/c/ChubbyemuGames/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/ChubbyemuGames/videos
- mmmpop 5y ago
  Maybe the general public should spend more time electing MDs and PhDs to run the government then? Instead we get bullshitters and grifters who defer to life-long bureaucrats with an MD of a PhD who suck-up to the right people to get the job, regardless of their actual competence. People tend to mistrust government "experts" because the feeling is that if they were better at their jobs, they'd obviously be in the private sector. This isn't always true but many people feel that way, like it or not.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    There are a a dozen and a half physicians in Congress. Their political affiliation may be surprising. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_in_the_United_States_Congress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_in_the_United_State...

rob_c 5y ago

It doesn't help when politicians are lying or lying by omission. At that point those who don't know better don't know where to turn for information. The UK has branded the official death stats as misinformation numerous times in the press and interviews to avoid getting into details of how they screwed up in response to all this... It's not always the fault of those led astray and I'm sure there's a suitable parable about a bad shepherd or something... Someone believing untruths is different to the nutters burning down 5G masts mind, but yes I worry about when misinformation reaches critical mass...

Levitz 5y ago

What about the times in which there was plenty of such data, only for it to be false in the end, say, typical conspiracy turned true like MKULTRA or NSA? Bear with me, not every country has as many people doubting their government, the bottom line in my opinion is that public trust in the government has been eroded so much that this happens and these people are aware that the government is capable of spinning lies that seem completely true, so why believe them at all?

lovecg 5y ago
Implicit in this argument is that Americans ever did trust their government. Has that actually ever been the case? I mean the whole country is founded on distrust of government as one of the principles.

rytor718 5y ago

I think in the US our situation was pretty dire from the start in regards to misinformation: the president and his staff were saying a ton of crazy crap from day one, from denial, to downplaying to telling people to effectively drink bleach. Pretty clear cut why we have trust issues right now and people denying any information about Covid at all. I mean the article raises great points, but the US hasn't had that problem, because its' been blatant misinformation with no attempt to tether it to any reality from the start. The trust was never there and I'd love to read more articles about how to repair that. But it has been interesting to see these dynamics described in the article in play out in other Western countries. I have to agree that we have to trust the public, but its conclusion -- that the people will not trust the government otherwise -- is sage. US currently is struggling to claw back any trust. We're in very dire straits. EDIT: formatting.

k1ko 5y ago
It's ironic that you seem to be a victim of misinformation yourself. Trump never came close to telling people to drink bleach. https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/07/13/fact-check-did-trump-tell-people-to-drink-bleach-to-kill-coronavirus/113754708/ https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020...