4 ms·

Are you arguing paperwork is placating men who would have otherwise been criminals and revolutionaries? That's certainly a take but it'll need a lot of convinci

by ido 5y ago

Are you arguing paperwork is placating men who would have otherwise been criminals and revolutionaries? That's certainly a take but it'll need a lot of convincing to believe it.

toyg 5y ago
The bureaucratic ideals tend to flourish in cultural systems that value order, as the Japanese one clearly does. If it's accepted that the collective is superior to the individual, as Meiji-era culture drilled deeply into every level of society, the next best question becomes how to organise such collective - enter bureaucracy. If one accepts he has to partake in bureaucracy for the good of the collective, one might eventually get to value the rituals in themselves, and the structure and order they provide, and feel a sense of belonging. Coupled with substantial guarantees of social solidity (job for life, always-increasing wealth levels...), this setup removes a lot of anger and criticism from the system, making it even more stable, in a virtuous cycle. Obviously nothing is permanent, and various economic crisis have significantly dented this model, but I reckon it still does a lot to placate the kind of unrest that we give for granted in the West - where bureaucracy is reviled by the individualistic "animal spirits" we exhalt since the times of Homer.
- mr_overalls 5y ago
  Okay, I'll admit I had the same reflexive skepticism to your initial comment as the person you're replying to. . . and your very well-reasoned, detailed response is emblematic of the reasons I keep coming back to HN.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    Japan was a very aggressive empire not even two generations ago, yet OP claiming that "Meiji-era culture values" are responsible for its current peaceful attitude passes for "well-reasoned"? What a load of IYI crap. Just as a counterexample: Germany is also known for its love for bureaucracy, its tendency to submit to authority and for the constant, loud, bite-less protesting. No amount of bureaucracy has helped to "channel (male) energies" elsewhere.
    - toyg 5y ago
      I think it goes lost that my original comment said "an" essential cause, not "the" cause. Obviously social systems are complex creatures, and isolating a factor does not mean excluding all the other ones. > Japan was a very aggressive empire not even two generations ago Aggressive externally but peaceful internally, which is really what we're talking about. Probably as a reaction to centuries of brutal internal warfare, since Meiji internal cohesion has been emphasized above most other things, and it has held in a way that we've not yet seen in Europe on a comparable scale. > Germany Interesting mention, because German practices and values were among the most significant ones "imported" under Meiji; Germany had recently made a massive social and technological leap forward, precisely the sort of thing the Japanese wanted to make (and did make), and Germans were extremely self-assured. However, Germany lies on a cultural bedrock of fundamental individualism, like the rest of Europe, and various factions were soon clashing in the streets in the name of various ideologies, with the result we all know. I think a lot of Germans would find your "bite-less protesting" as a mischaracterization: German movements have been very, very bitey, before and after the various recent conflicts, producing (and exporting) terrorists and disruptors pretty regularly.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        > Obviously social systems are complex creatures, and isolating a factor does not mean excluding all the other ones. Yet here you are, defending the idea that we would be better off by leaning heavier into bureaucracy and collective compliance as a way to "internal" peace. > Germany lies on a cultural bedrock of fundamental individualism (...) a lot of Germans would find your "bite-less protesting" as a mischaracterization. Great. Now try to explain Switzerland. They are not exactly known for a "love of bureaucracy" or "the (national) collective taking precedence over the individual", yet they managed to get peace (internal and external) through centuries. Do you see my point? You are trying to attribute to "bureaucracy" something that can be attributed to a bunch of other things. It is a bad generalization and a basic fundamental attribution error. This is what smells of IYI crap.
        toyg 5y ago
- Chris2048 5y ago
  > this setup removes a lot of anger and criticism from the system It could also have the opposite effect, if citizens uphold their end of the bargain and the government doesn't; this is why I think there is more to this wrt competency on the government side.

by ido 5y ago

Are you arguing paperwork is placating men who would have otherwise been criminals and revolutionaries? That's certainly a take but it'll need a lot of convincing to believe it.

toyg 5y ago

The bureaucratic ideals tend to flourish in cultural systems that value order, as the Japanese one clearly does. If it's accepted that the collective is superior to the individual, as Meiji-era culture drilled deeply into every level of society, the next best question becomes how to organise such collective - enter bureaucracy. If one accepts he has to partake in bureaucracy for the good of the collective, one might eventually get to value the rituals in themselves, and the structure and order they provide, and feel a sense of belonging. Coupled with substantial guarantees of social solidity (job for life, always-increasing wealth levels...), this setup removes a lot of anger and criticism from the system, making it even more stable, in a virtuous cycle. Obviously nothing is permanent, and various economic crisis have significantly dented this model, but I reckon it still does a lot to placate the kind of unrest that we give for granted in the West - where bureaucracy is reviled by the individualistic "animal spirits" we exhalt since the times of Homer.

mr_overalls 5y ago
Okay, I'll admit I had the same reflexive skepticism to your initial comment as the person you're replying to. . . and your very well-reasoned, detailed response is emblematic of the reasons I keep coming back to HN.
- rglullis 5y ago
  Japan was a very aggressive empire not even two generations ago, yet OP claiming that "Meiji-era culture values" are responsible for its current peaceful attitude passes for "well-reasoned"? What a load of IYI crap. Just as a counterexample: Germany is also known for its love for bureaucracy, its tendency to submit to authority and for the constant, loud, bite-less protesting. No amount of bureaucracy has helped to "channel (male) energies" elsewhere.
  - toyg 5y ago
    I think it goes lost that my original comment said "an" essential cause, not "the" cause. Obviously social systems are complex creatures, and isolating a factor does not mean excluding all the other ones. > Japan was a very aggressive empire not even two generations ago Aggressive externally but peaceful internally, which is really what we're talking about. Probably as a reaction to centuries of brutal internal warfare, since Meiji internal cohesion has been emphasized above most other things, and it has held in a way that we've not yet seen in Europe on a comparable scale. > Germany Interesting mention, because German practices and values were among the most significant ones "imported" under Meiji; Germany had recently made a massive social and technological leap forward, precisely the sort of thing the Japanese wanted to make (and did make), and Germans were extremely self-assured. However, Germany lies on a cultural bedrock of fundamental individualism, like the rest of Europe, and various factions were soon clashing in the streets in the name of various ideologies, with the result we all know. I think a lot of Germans would find your "bite-less protesting" as a mischaracterization: German movements have been very, very bitey, before and after the various recent conflicts, producing (and exporting) terrorists and disruptors pretty regularly.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      > Obviously social systems are complex creatures, and isolating a factor does not mean excluding all the other ones. Yet here you are, defending the idea that we would be better off by leaning heavier into bureaucracy and collective compliance as a way to "internal" peace. > Germany lies on a cultural bedrock of fundamental individualism (...) a lot of Germans would find your "bite-less protesting" as a mischaracterization. Great. Now try to explain Switzerland. They are not exactly known for a "love of bureaucracy" or "the (national) collective taking precedence over the individual", yet they managed to get peace (internal and external) through centuries. Do you see my point? You are trying to attribute to "bureaucracy" something that can be attributed to a bunch of other things. It is a bad generalization and a basic fundamental attribution error. This is what smells of IYI crap.
      - toyg 5y ago
Chris2048 5y ago
> this setup removes a lot of anger and criticism from the system It could also have the opposite effect, if citizens uphold their end of the bargain and the government doesn't; this is why I think there is more to this wrt competency on the government side.