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Funny how people who claim to be so rational and to make data-driven decisions apply quotas for genders, skin color, sexual orientation etc. while there’s evide

by nme01 5y ago

Funny how people who claim to be so rational and to make data-driven decisions apply quotas for genders, skin color, sexual orientation etc. while there’s evidence that those kinds of policies are actually counter-productive.

tomp 5y ago
Can you post some sources / links to such evidence? In my debates, I'd often ask people "do you have any data to support your position" but if I had data that argues against their positions, that'd be even better!
- xiphias2 5y ago
  I knew a hard working student who was applying for PhD who had the incentive to change his gender and sexual orientation (lie) to get extra points to get in. I don’t know what he did at the end, but incentivizing people to lie will definitely worsen the pool of PhD students.
  - tomp 5y ago
    Well, the beautiful thing is, as a science-supporter (not "believer"!), I don't even recognize the concept of "gender" as distinct from "sex" (noone ever managed to explain it in a non-recursive manner, or consistently define it), so I'm officially agender, I don't even need to lie (while remaining a man (sex)).
cute_boi 5y ago
quotas might be a solution to various problems but in this world where there are stupid politics, greed, money over ethics we know it is good on paper and is worst on practical life. A good example is India where quotas has been ingrained in every part of society and at the end many dexterous candidates doesn't get a seat. Quotas were introduced in India to alleviate poverty but now a days its just used by politicians to appease minorities. Quota were supposed to temporary but we know it is never going away. I want society to solve problem not circumscribe at the problem and mark it as solution.
- SiempreViernes 5y ago
  So you think Indian politicians would have alleviated poverty much better without quotas?
eesmith 5y ago
There is also evidence that it's not counter-productive. Eg, Clayton, A. "How Do Electoral Gender Quotas Affect Policy?", Annu. Rev. Political Sci. 2021. 24:235–52 at https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-polisci-041719-102019 https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-polisc... > The large majority of work on quota adoption suggests that quotas are followed by the greater substantive representation of women’s interests, priorities, and preferences. However, several studies have documented cases in which quotas have resulted in limited policy changes or even more gender-inegalitarian outcomes. ... > On average, quota-elected women appear to influence policy in ways that substantively benefit women constituents, either by distributing resources in ways that reflect women’s priorities or by enacting or enforcing policies that grant women greater rights. Yet, these findings are not universal, and some work uncovers null results or even instances of backlash against women officeholders in ways that exacerbate patriarchal policies and practices. That there is such variation in the observed policy effects of gender quotas suggests the potential for moderating variables. That's specifically on policy making, but I think it's enough to highlight how evidence of backlash - which certainly does exist! - isn't on its own enough to make data-driven decisions.
- nme01 5y ago
  I guess it depends on how you define a goal of quotas. If it’s meant to increase women’s presence in certain areas just for the sake of having more women somewhere, then quotas might work. But if you apply quotas to fight the gender/sexuality/skin color bias then usually those policies are applied in a wrong place which creates yet another bias, just of a different direction. Let’s get a promotion policies for example: if you say that at least 50% of board of directors should be women but 95% of all employees is man, then average woman in the company is 19 times more likely to be promoted than average man which seems extremely unfair. The problem should be well understood first. That is: why do we have so few female employees. Then it might turn out that we are biased in our hiring process. If there’s no evidence for that, then maybe there’s a bias during university recruitment process etc.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    In order to make a data-driven decision, where's the evidence that your hypothesis is correct? FWIW, Norway requires at least 40% gender representation on the boards of public companies, so there's data right there. The best I can tell is "mixed", but definitely not "actually counter-productive". I quoted "mixed" from https://www.ft.com/content/6f6bc5a2-7b70-11e8-af48-190d103e32a4 https://www.ft.com/content/6f6bc5a2-7b70-11e8-af48-190d103e3... . One of the observations quoted there is: > Ms Helleland says three-quarters of recruitment is down to informal networks: “Men recruit men. Men recruit CEOs that look like themselves. I interpret that as an informal quota system for men. There's decades of research on this topic. Either it's "well understood" now, or there's no good way to make a data-driven decision.
tgv 5y ago
Then you'll be able to answer the most basic question: what's the goal of gender quota? And then show how gender quota accomplishes that goal, or at least moves towards it, without harming other goals.

by nme01 5y ago

tomp 5y ago

Can you post some sources / links to such evidence? In my debates, I'd often ask people "do you have any data to support your position" but if I had data that argues against their positions, that'd be even better!

xiphias2 5y ago
I knew a hard working student who was applying for PhD who had the incentive to change his gender and sexual orientation (lie) to get extra points to get in. I don’t know what he did at the end, but incentivizing people to lie will definitely worsen the pool of PhD students.
- tomp 5y ago
  Well, the beautiful thing is, as a science-supporter (not "believer"!), I don't even recognize the concept of "gender" as distinct from "sex" (noone ever managed to explain it in a non-recursive manner, or consistently define it), so I'm officially agender, I don't even need to lie (while remaining a man (sex)).

cute_boi 5y ago

quotas might be a solution to various problems but in this world where there are stupid politics, greed, money over ethics we know it is good on paper and is worst on practical life. A good example is India where quotas has been ingrained in every part of society and at the end many dexterous candidates doesn't get a seat. Quotas were introduced in India to alleviate poverty but now a days its just used by politicians to appease minorities. Quota were supposed to temporary but we know it is never going away. I want society to solve problem not circumscribe at the problem and mark it as solution.

SiempreViernes 5y ago
So you think Indian politicians would have alleviated poverty much better without quotas?

eesmith 5y ago

There is also evidence that it's not counter-productive. Eg, Clayton, A. "How Do Electoral Gender Quotas Affect Policy?", Annu. Rev. Political Sci. 2021. 24:235–52 at https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-polisci-041719-102019 https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-polisc... > The large majority of work on quota adoption suggests that quotas are followed by the greater substantive representation of women’s interests, priorities, and preferences. However, several studies have documented cases in which quotas have resulted in limited policy changes or even more gender-inegalitarian outcomes. ... > On average, quota-elected women appear to influence policy in ways that substantively benefit women constituents, either by distributing resources in ways that reflect women’s priorities or by enacting or enforcing policies that grant women greater rights. Yet, these findings are not universal, and some work uncovers null results or even instances of backlash against women officeholders in ways that exacerbate patriarchal policies and practices. That there is such variation in the observed policy effects of gender quotas suggests the potential for moderating variables. That's specifically on policy making, but I think it's enough to highlight how evidence of backlash - which certainly does exist! - isn't on its own enough to make data-driven decisions.

nme01 5y ago
I guess it depends on how you define a goal of quotas. If it’s meant to increase women’s presence in certain areas just for the sake of having more women somewhere, then quotas might work. But if you apply quotas to fight the gender/sexuality/skin color bias then usually those policies are applied in a wrong place which creates yet another bias, just of a different direction. Let’s get a promotion policies for example: if you say that at least 50% of board of directors should be women but 95% of all employees is man, then average woman in the company is 19 times more likely to be promoted than average man which seems extremely unfair. The problem should be well understood first. That is: why do we have so few female employees. Then it might turn out that we are biased in our hiring process. If there’s no evidence for that, then maybe there’s a bias during university recruitment process etc.
- eesmith 5y ago
  In order to make a data-driven decision, where's the evidence that your hypothesis is correct? FWIW, Norway requires at least 40% gender representation on the boards of public companies, so there's data right there. The best I can tell is "mixed", but definitely not "actually counter-productive". I quoted "mixed" from https://www.ft.com/content/6f6bc5a2-7b70-11e8-af48-190d103e32a4 https://www.ft.com/content/6f6bc5a2-7b70-11e8-af48-190d103e3... . One of the observations quoted there is: > Ms Helleland says three-quarters of recruitment is down to informal networks: “Men recruit men. Men recruit CEOs that look like themselves. I interpret that as an informal quota system for men. There's decades of research on this topic. Either it's "well understood" now, or there's no good way to make a data-driven decision.

tgv 5y ago

Then you'll be able to answer the most basic question: what's the goal of gender quota? And then show how gender quota accomplishes that goal, or at least moves towards it, without harming other goals.