4 ms·

I don't know if I buy that argument. The number of new developers isn't much higher today than it was already in the 90s. I know plenty of former developers in

I don't know if I buy that argument. The number of new developers isn't much higher today than it was already in the 90s. I know plenty of former developers in a wide variety of jobs, and it looks like most people simply drop out in the first 10-15 years. Being a developer is not a good long-term career option, unless you really like the job. It demands much, but the pay isn't competitive, except for a small minority.

UncleMeat 5y ago
Does a software job at some government contractor that pays 90k really demand much more than a civil engineering job at some government contractor that pays 80k?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
luka-birsa 5y ago
"Being a developer is not a good long-term career option, unless you really like the job. It demands much, but the pay isn't competitive, except for a small minority." 1. Being X is not a good long-term option, unless you like the job. 2. Not sure where you base you viewpoint, but I have a hard time finding a more competitive and global job market that favours candidates. 3. All high paying jobs demand much. Otherwise they wouldn't be high-paying.
- jltsiren 5y ago
  My impression is that the top 20% of the job market pays competitively, while the bottom 80% doesn't. The average developer writes and maintains custom software for large organizations. While that kind of secretarial work is useful and necessary, it's not particularly valuable and doesn't pay that well.
  - TheCoelacanth 5y ago
    "Not competitive" for a software developer is still a pretty high paying job by most peoples' standards.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > My impression is that the top 20% of the job market pays competitively, while the bottom 80% doesn't. Truth is, it's the top 20% that creates the most value.
  - drumhead 5y ago
    Not particularly valuable.....until your system goes down and you cant access the data or pay your employees or activate your machinery, or miss vital deadlines, etc etc.
    - jltsiren 5y ago
      A job may be vital without being particularly valuable. Just ask any of the "essential workers" who had to continue working on-site last year. The value of your job depends more on the costs of replacing you than on what would happen if nobody does the job.
      - drumhead 5y ago
        I dont understand you definition of valuable? Do you mean in terms of revenue generated? Is that what you mean by valuable?
        jltsiren 5y ago
        I mean economic value – what people are willing to pay for something. For example, drinking water is incredibly important. Without it, we would die in a matter of days. However, you can't create much value by producing clean drinking water (branding it is another story), because people are not willing to pay that much for it under normal circumstances. As long as people can reasonably assume that someone will produce drinking water anyway, its value remains low. In the same way, many jobs are essential but don't produce much value under normal circumstances. There is usually another person or another company willing to provide the same good or service.
jmfldn 5y ago
" The number of new developers isn't much higher today than it was already in the 90s" All the data suggests this is wrong by any order of magnitude. The web was an absolute game changer.
- tabtab 5y ago
  > The web was an absolute game changer. In the fact that it made rank-and-file CRUD harder. The web's state-less-ness and screwy anti-wysiwyg UI "auto-flow" made CRUD into a convoluted whack-a-mole mess even its mother hates. It takes about 3x as long and 3x more code to develop a CRUD app in web now. We have to focus on tech & UI minutia instead of the domain. We de-evolved and nobody seems to care. The Jetsons were shot in head point blank, replaced with the Flinstone DOM. The web may be is a godsend for e-commerce and social networks, but it sucks rotting eggs for office CRUD: the wrong tool for the job.
- jltsiren 5y ago
  The web was an absolute game changer in the 90s, and it attracted many new people into the field. A lot of those people left tech due to the poor job market in the 2000s.
the_only_law 5y ago
> but the pay isn't competitive, except for a small minority. What pay is though? I make significantly less than numbers discussed in tech-centric places, but I still make more than I could doing anything else given my age/education.

UncleMeat 5y ago

Does a software job at some government contractor that pays 90k really demand much more than a civil engineering job at some government contractor that pays 80k?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

luka-birsa 5y ago

"Being a developer is not a good long-term career option, unless you really like the job. It demands much, but the pay isn't competitive, except for a small minority." 1. Being X is not a good long-term option, unless you like the job. 2. Not sure where you base you viewpoint, but I have a hard time finding a more competitive and global job market that favours candidates. 3. All high paying jobs demand much. Otherwise they wouldn't be high-paying.

jltsiren 5y ago
My impression is that the top 20% of the job market pays competitively, while the bottom 80% doesn't. The average developer writes and maintains custom software for large organizations. While that kind of secretarial work is useful and necessary, it's not particularly valuable and doesn't pay that well.
- TheCoelacanth 5y ago
  "Not competitive" for a software developer is still a pretty high paying job by most peoples' standards.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > My impression is that the top 20% of the job market pays competitively, while the bottom 80% doesn't. Truth is, it's the top 20% that creates the most value.
- drumhead 5y ago
  Not particularly valuable.....until your system goes down and you cant access the data or pay your employees or activate your machinery, or miss vital deadlines, etc etc.
  - jltsiren 5y ago
    A job may be vital without being particularly valuable. Just ask any of the "essential workers" who had to continue working on-site last year. The value of your job depends more on the costs of replacing you than on what would happen if nobody does the job.
    - drumhead 5y ago
      I dont understand you definition of valuable? Do you mean in terms of revenue generated? Is that what you mean by valuable?
      - jltsiren 5y ago
        I mean economic value – what people are willing to pay for something. For example, drinking water is incredibly important. Without it, we would die in a matter of days. However, you can't create much value by producing clean drinking water (branding it is another story), because people are not willing to pay that much for it under normal circumstances. As long as people can reasonably assume that someone will produce drinking water anyway, its value remains low. In the same way, many jobs are essential but don't produce much value under normal circumstances. There is usually another person or another company willing to provide the same good or service.

jmfldn 5y ago

" The number of new developers isn't much higher today than it was already in the 90s" All the data suggests this is wrong by any order of magnitude. The web was an absolute game changer.

tabtab 5y ago
> The web was an absolute game changer. In the fact that it made rank-and-file CRUD harder. The web's state-less-ness and screwy anti-wysiwyg UI "auto-flow" made CRUD into a convoluted whack-a-mole mess even its mother hates. It takes about 3x as long and 3x more code to develop a CRUD app in web now. We have to focus on tech & UI minutia instead of the domain. We de-evolved and nobody seems to care. The Jetsons were shot in head point blank, replaced with the Flinstone DOM. The web may be is a godsend for e-commerce and social networks, but it sucks rotting eggs for office CRUD: the wrong tool for the job.
jltsiren 5y ago
The web was an absolute game changer in the 90s, and it attracted many new people into the field. A lot of those people left tech due to the poor job market in the 2000s.

the_only_law 5y ago

> but the pay isn't competitive, except for a small minority. What pay is though? I make significantly less than numbers discussed in tech-centric places, but I still make more than I could doing anything else given my age/education.