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Australian soldiers committing war crimes in Afghanistan? Nobody bats an eyelid. Can't go to Kmart because the government tries to fight the pandemic? Riots in

Australian soldiers committing war crimes in Afghanistan? Nobody bats an eyelid. Can't go to Kmart because the government tries to fight the pandemic? Riots in the streets. And you're surprised there's complacency to digital surveillance, when people are more outraged by slight personal discomfort than by murder. It's not even criticism, just an observation. People are very comfortable in their bubble and do not care about anything on the outside; you only get a reaction when the comfort bubble is disturbed.

0xy 5y ago
Boiling the current lockdown regime to "can't shop in stores" is needlessly dismissive and reductionist. The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea, China and others. I think it's fair to say that a country should be able to control inbound immigration to some extent. But preventing outbound immigration to foreign citizens is despicable. I know dozens of foreign citizens who have been stuck in Australia because they cannot leave without a permit, that isn't guaranteed even for compelling reasons. Numerous valid permits are being denied. That's one element. Then there's blatant police state policies and abuses such as a curfew with absolutely zero health evidence backing, police throwing unarmed people to the ground unprovoked into a pool of their blood and refusing medical attention for them [1], pepper spraying elderly people for peacefully protesting and more. [1] https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/video-emerges-of-cop-throwing-man-headfirst-into-the-ground-in-melbourne/news-story/a9b73be96d8ab5615f186db867de2262 https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/video-emerges-of-c...
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea, China and others. Only if you're a permanent resident of Australia. https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia > If you are an Australian citizen or a permanent resident you cannot leave Australia due to COVID-19 restrictions unless you have an exemption. > Due to the current COVID-19 situation in Australia, including state and territory border restrictions, business closures and social distancing requirements, international visitors are encouraged to return home when possible to do so.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Article 13 Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
- Tomis02 5y ago
  To summarise what you're saying: "the government did some things wrong while fighting COVID". Sure, I don't disagree. That said, are bad government policies worse than the murder of civilians? I'll let you guess which one is more likely to make me go out and protest. Of course I'll ridicule people who call Australia an authoritarian state over the suboptimal handling of a public health problem. First of all because I know what an authoritarian state actually looks like, and second because having temporary movement restrictions is only a mild inconvenience for most people. Also, your government actually wants you out of your house working and spending money, and they would much rather not have lockdowns at all than lose votes over this. I never thought I'd see the day where I talk about an Australian politician in a non-critical way, but here we are. > foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country Only permanent residents are not allowed to leave without a permit, as per the home affairs page. But to address your point, I can absolutely promise you that people did not go on protests for the sake of foreigners that couldn't leave Australia.
  - 0xy 5y ago
    >Only permanent residents are not allowed to leave without a permit Must be outdated information, it was changed recently. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/06/australians-who-live-overseas-now-unable-to-leave-country-if-they-return-for-visit https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/06/austr... >The Australian government has quietly expanded its ban on Australian citizens leaving the country to include people who are ordinarily residents in another country, meaning that even people who live overseas may not be allowed to leave Australia. Absolutely despicable, and contrary to UN freedom of movement human rights charters -- of which Australia is a signatory. When your country steps on basic human rights as defined by the UN, you no longer have an excuse to not call what's happening "authoritarian". Sorry, but preventing foreign citizens from leaving by force is authoritarian. That's North Korea tier. No other Western country prevents outbound travel for non-citizens.
    - Tomis02 5y ago
      As far as I know, any foreign citizen can leave. If they are a permanent resident, they can either apply for a permit or drop their visa - it's generally much easier to leave than to come back. Your quote is slightly ambiguous but I assume it refers to Australian citizens who are residents of other countries. The article you linked only talks about Australian citizens as far as I can tell. FWI I upvoted your original comment to compensate for the downvotes.
exodust 5y ago
> Nobody bats an eyelid....Can't go to Kmart....Riots in the streets...slight personal discomfort Hyperbole overload. Here in Victoria, we're still in the world's longest lockdown. Curfews, strict rules, masks outside, closed local businesses, police ready to pounce on anyone waving a sign saying "end the lockdown". To express any anti-lockdown opinion, is to be a traitor of public health. You're not a team player unless you submitting to the world's longest lockdown. "This is literally a war", said the NSW Premier a few months ago in her description of the pandemic. I guess it's fitting a military man in uniform heads the vaccine rollout. A small group of health workers, mostly women, sat silently socially distanced in a Victorian park recently, with masks on. They were protesting vaccine mandates. A bus load of cops pulled up and surrounded them. Can't even protest in a responsible covid-safe manner. It's illegal. You're an anti-vax menace to society if you express anything against whatever the government throws your way because "fighting the pandemic" as you put it. "slight personal discomfort". You know nothing about the toll of the world's longest lockdown when you frame it as "Kmart inconvenience". And what exactly should "batting an eyelid" look like for the average person on the subject of war crimes in Afghanistan? Would it please you if more than 250,000 marched though the city like they did in protest of committing Australian troops to the war on terror? I have no idea what your eyelid battering minimum standards are for war crimes, but one would expect a common reaction would be to allow the courts to deal with the offenders. The average person can't email the judge and provide external influence in those matters. But hey, "nobody bats an eyelid" sounds more dramatic for a good story, I guess.
- Tomis02 5y ago
  It seems we're both pretty good at hyperbole. > Can't even protest in a responsible covid-safe manner Breaking lockdown to protest lockdown kinda misses the point of a lockdown. I understand people's frustration but once you compare the number of covid-related deaths to other countries you can reasonably conclude that the overall effort of fighting the pandemic was successful. Were there some badly implemented measures from the local governments? Possibly. But the idea behind them was to preserve life, which seems to have happened. I don't know of any country that managed to somehow allow people free movement and keep covid-related deaths to a minimum, so it's a trade-off between the two. > You know nothing about the toll of the world's longest lockdown Well, I know that in any democratic society citizens have not only rights but also responsibilities. Lockdowns are a way in which the community temporarily sacrifices some freedom in order to protect vulnerable people, and I believe that this must be done in any civilized society. Yes, it will take a toll on people, and it's the right thing to do. We've known it since Socrates. The reason I'm calling it a Kmart riot is because I can see the avalanche of social media comments by your average Joe, radicalised in his own bubble to believe that Australia is creating the fourth Reich because he has to wear a mask. Another very common lockdown complaint is "my kids are bored they want to go out". Yeah, sorry, I can't take this seriously. I'm sure there are some real dramas out there, I have empathy for people who experience hardship, but the majority (totality?) of the complaints I've heard are just laughable. > Would it please you if more than 250,000 marched though the city like they did in protest of committing Australian troops to the war on terror? Yes it would, but my minimum standards would be to have a social media response of at least the same magnitude as the one to the lockdowns. That's an easy way to gauge public opinion these days, just count the number of articles, likes and comments on Facebook and YouTube. Bonus points for writing letters to MPs, government and journalists to inquire on the progress of the investigation, if there are enough resources allocated for it and what is being done to protect the witnesses, for example. Edit: I'm not against war, sometimes it's absolutely necessary. Targeting civilians however is simply abominable and it's not clear to me how one can be at peace knowing unconvicted murderers are walking around in the community. If morality isn't an issue, at the very least we have the practical concern of whether they'll murder civilians again. Brushing this off seems not very prudent.

0xy 5y ago

Boiling the current lockdown regime to "can't shop in stores" is needlessly dismissive and reductionist. The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea, China and others. I think it's fair to say that a country should be able to control inbound immigration to some extent. But preventing outbound immigration to foreign citizens is despicable. I know dozens of foreign citizens who have been stuck in Australia because they cannot leave without a permit, that isn't guaranteed even for compelling reasons. Numerous valid permits are being denied. That's one element. Then there's blatant police state policies and abuses such as a curfew with absolutely zero health evidence backing, police throwing unarmed people to the ground unprovoked into a pool of their blood and refusing medical attention for them [1], pepper spraying elderly people for peacefully protesting and more. [1] https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/video-emerges-of-cop-throwing-man-headfirst-into-the-ground-in-melbourne/news-story/a9b73be96d8ab5615f186db867de2262 https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/video-emerges-of-c...

ceejayoz 5y ago
> The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea, China and others. Only if you're a permanent resident of Australia. https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia > If you are an Australian citizen or a permanent resident you cannot leave Australia due to COVID-19 restrictions unless you have an exemption. > Due to the current COVID-19 situation in Australia, including state and territory border restrictions, business closures and social distancing requirements, international visitors are encouraged to return home when possible to do so.
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Article 13 Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Tomis02 5y ago
To summarise what you're saying: "the government did some things wrong while fighting COVID". Sure, I don't disagree. That said, are bad government policies worse than the murder of civilians? I'll let you guess which one is more likely to make me go out and protest. Of course I'll ridicule people who call Australia an authoritarian state over the suboptimal handling of a public health problem. First of all because I know what an authoritarian state actually looks like, and second because having temporary movement restrictions is only a mild inconvenience for most people. Also, your government actually wants you out of your house working and spending money, and they would much rather not have lockdowns at all than lose votes over this. I never thought I'd see the day where I talk about an Australian politician in a non-critical way, but here we are. > foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country Only permanent residents are not allowed to leave without a permit, as per the home affairs page. But to address your point, I can absolutely promise you that people did not go on protests for the sake of foreigners that couldn't leave Australia.
- 0xy 5y ago
  >Only permanent residents are not allowed to leave without a permit Must be outdated information, it was changed recently. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/06/australians-who-live-overseas-now-unable-to-leave-country-if-they-return-for-visit https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/06/austr... >The Australian government has quietly expanded its ban on Australian citizens leaving the country to include people who are ordinarily residents in another country, meaning that even people who live overseas may not be allowed to leave Australia. Absolutely despicable, and contrary to UN freedom of movement human rights charters -- of which Australia is a signatory. When your country steps on basic human rights as defined by the UN, you no longer have an excuse to not call what's happening "authoritarian". Sorry, but preventing foreign citizens from leaving by force is authoritarian. That's North Korea tier. No other Western country prevents outbound travel for non-citizens.
  - Tomis02 5y ago
    As far as I know, any foreign citizen can leave. If they are a permanent resident, they can either apply for a permit or drop their visa - it's generally much easier to leave than to come back. Your quote is slightly ambiguous but I assume it refers to Australian citizens who are residents of other countries. The article you linked only talks about Australian citizens as far as I can tell. FWI I upvoted your original comment to compensate for the downvotes.

exodust 5y ago

> Nobody bats an eyelid....Can't go to Kmart....Riots in the streets...slight personal discomfort Hyperbole overload. Here in Victoria, we're still in the world's longest lockdown. Curfews, strict rules, masks outside, closed local businesses, police ready to pounce on anyone waving a sign saying "end the lockdown". To express any anti-lockdown opinion, is to be a traitor of public health. You're not a team player unless you submitting to the world's longest lockdown. "This is literally a war", said the NSW Premier a few months ago in her description of the pandemic. I guess it's fitting a military man in uniform heads the vaccine rollout. A small group of health workers, mostly women, sat silently socially distanced in a Victorian park recently, with masks on. They were protesting vaccine mandates. A bus load of cops pulled up and surrounded them. Can't even protest in a responsible covid-safe manner. It's illegal. You're an anti-vax menace to society if you express anything against whatever the government throws your way because "fighting the pandemic" as you put it. "slight personal discomfort". You know nothing about the toll of the world's longest lockdown when you frame it as "Kmart inconvenience". And what exactly should "batting an eyelid" look like for the average person on the subject of war crimes in Afghanistan? Would it please you if more than 250,000 marched though the city like they did in protest of committing Australian troops to the war on terror? I have no idea what your eyelid battering minimum standards are for war crimes, but one would expect a common reaction would be to allow the courts to deal with the offenders. The average person can't email the judge and provide external influence in those matters. But hey, "nobody bats an eyelid" sounds more dramatic for a good story, I guess.

Tomis02 5y ago
It seems we're both pretty good at hyperbole. > Can't even protest in a responsible covid-safe manner Breaking lockdown to protest lockdown kinda misses the point of a lockdown. I understand people's frustration but once you compare the number of covid-related deaths to other countries you can reasonably conclude that the overall effort of fighting the pandemic was successful. Were there some badly implemented measures from the local governments? Possibly. But the idea behind them was to preserve life, which seems to have happened. I don't know of any country that managed to somehow allow people free movement and keep covid-related deaths to a minimum, so it's a trade-off between the two. > You know nothing about the toll of the world's longest lockdown Well, I know that in any democratic society citizens have not only rights but also responsibilities. Lockdowns are a way in which the community temporarily sacrifices some freedom in order to protect vulnerable people, and I believe that this must be done in any civilized society. Yes, it will take a toll on people, and it's the right thing to do. We've known it since Socrates. The reason I'm calling it a Kmart riot is because I can see the avalanche of social media comments by your average Joe, radicalised in his own bubble to believe that Australia is creating the fourth Reich because he has to wear a mask. Another very common lockdown complaint is "my kids are bored they want to go out". Yeah, sorry, I can't take this seriously. I'm sure there are some real dramas out there, I have empathy for people who experience hardship, but the majority (totality?) of the complaints I've heard are just laughable. > Would it please you if more than 250,000 marched though the city like they did in protest of committing Australian troops to the war on terror? Yes it would, but my minimum standards would be to have a social media response of at least the same magnitude as the one to the lockdowns. That's an easy way to gauge public opinion these days, just count the number of articles, likes and comments on Facebook and YouTube. Bonus points for writing letters to MPs, government and journalists to inquire on the progress of the investigation, if there are enough resources allocated for it and what is being done to protect the witnesses, for example. Edit: I'm not against war, sometimes it's absolutely necessary. Targeting civilians however is simply abominable and it's not clear to me how one can be at peace knowing unconvicted murderers are walking around in the community. If morality isn't an issue, at the very least we have the practical concern of whether they'll murder civilians again. Brushing this off seems not very prudent.