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It's been an odd experience having a few Australian HN posters attempt to rationalize to me why their police are justified in shooting people who leave their ho

It's been an odd experience having a few Australian HN posters attempt to rationalize to me why their police are justified in shooting people who leave their homes with rubber bullets, and why it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences. I guess strict authoritarianism must be accompanied with equally strict media propaganda.

na85 5y ago
>why it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences. Say what? Got a link?
- k1t 5y ago
  Might be this: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-australias-home-quarantine-trial-work/100398878 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-austra... https://katv.com/news/coronavirus/new-program-tracks-quarantining-australians-via-app-requires-selfies-for-proof https://katv.com/news/coronavirus/new-program-tracks-quarant... [Home quarantining] participants will receive advice via the smartphone app as to their obligation at random times to provide the selfie back to the public health teams. Should that not be responded to in a period of time, follow up calls or visits are made so as to make sure that the person is where they should be,” Foley explained.
  - na85 5y ago
    That's heinous.
    - javagram 5y ago
      Seems less heinous than spreading a dangerous virus and killing hundreds or thousands of citizens? We’ve seen other countries try that approach (e.g. here in the USA) and it clearly harms society and has led to massive suffering and loss of life. Considering this is being trialed as an alternative to being locked under guard in a hotel or cabin for two weeks, it’s actually less invasive too…
      - randomhodler84 5y ago
        And this is the problem with slippery slopes. I find the facial recognition gps tracking apps to be horribly intrusive and not a good alternative to being locked up in a hotel, which is also awful. They always pull this crap, and society ends up accepting the lesser of two evils. Like the meme, always has been.
        javagram 5y ago
        Centuries ago, people had to be locked up for 40 or 50 days on a small ship (the original “quarantine”) to prevent spreading disease before they’d be allowed in. Modern technology reducing it to 14 days and a few photos in the comfort of your home seems an improvement, not a slippery slope.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
        That’s a horrible way to look at it. There are so many alternative ways to enforce a quarantine / lockdown without having to resort to such invasive things. If you use the justification of “harming society” and “massive suffering and loss of life” you can justify way more than just fighting COVID-19. Slippery slope aside, why can’t the government merely enforce the curfew by telling citizens not to leave their homes instead of forcing them to take selfies at random intervals? If you don’t comply they send the police to your home. If you don’t comply out of protest, they’ll jail you for your safety, where you’re more likely to catch the disease they’re trying to keep you from catching. Pure insanity.
      - na85 5y ago
        >Seems less heinous than spreading a dangerous virus and killing hundreds or thousands of citizens? Since when is the choice between "in-home photo surveillance" and "intentionally spreading COVID"?
        javagram 5y ago
vkou 5y ago
It's normal for a quarantine. Would you prefer to be locked up in supervised quarantine[1][2][3], instead? [1] https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/quarantine-stations-us.html https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/quarantine-stations-us.html [2] https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/historyquarantine.html https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/historyquarantine.html [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine#Modern_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine#Modern_history
- chroem- 5y ago
  Anyone who has crossed state lines in the last two weeks is required to follow those quarantine measures. They have fewer than 10 deaths per state combined with very high vaccination rates. From the outside looking in, it seems wholly unjustified.
  - _kbh_ 5y ago
    The reason we have such low deaths is because of the measures in place. They are slowly changing as vaccination targets are met and life should be back to normalish by December.
    - kongin 5y ago
      And yet we heard the same thing last December. Things aren't going back to normal, when Australia opens up regardless of vaccination status thousands of people will die if they are lucky and tens of thousands if they are not. The vaccines have been a huge disappointment with constant goal post moving the only way to keep people from noticing.
    - AndrewBissell 5y ago
      How will the Australian state's vaccination targets be met without maintaining the restrictions which are used to coerce people into getting vaccinated? Things might be somewhat relaxed by December just because it's summer in Australia, but I have a hard time seeing you go the way of "just live with it like the flu" like Denmark or Singapore over the long term.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
C19is20 5y ago
Is it common for people in Australia to leave home with rubber bullets?
- pedalpete 5y ago
  That was my reaction!!! They're attempting to equate anybody who leaves their home with being a rioter who attacked police.
ntSean 5y ago
> police are justified in shooting people who leave their homes with rubber bullets This is not true at all. As an Australian who has been following protests closely and the police response, they are clearly only shooting rubber bullets at those who are: - Throwing glass bottles at police - Attacking "fake news" journalists - Damaging buildings and monuments. Black Lives Matter protests peacefully marched through the city last year and no rubber bullets were used. > why it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences Unless you're in quarantine, this is not a requirement. Are you suggesting that we should not have a quarantine program? Or continue to use hotels, which are ill-equip for quarantining, and lead to the initial outbreaks here in Australia? > I guess strict authoritarianism must be accompanied with equally strict media propaganda. Media diversity has never been worse. I agree that things need to change. That however, has nothing to do with CHO directives.
- TapWaterBandit 5y ago
  Police going door to door in NSW/VIC investigating protestors against lockdowns months after they have occurred. I assume you will support similar surveillance of BLM protestors? NSW: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/23/australia_police_goes_door_to_door_are_you_aware_of_any_planned_protests_or_events_coming_up.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/23/australia... VIC: https://twitter.com/sullydish/status/1447314509949984768 https://twitter.com/sullydish/status/1447314509949984768
  - paranoidrobot 5y ago
    The NSW one it's not clear from the context whether that person was at a protest. The second one it's pretty clear they were. I don't know which protests they were, but a number of anti-lockdown/vaccine protests were violent, which is likely the reason the police were investigating. That it's months later is almost certainly because police have been going through a shitload of leads. The same thing is happening in the US where people suspected of participating in the January 6 riots are/were being investigated months after events.
    - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
paranoidrobot 5y ago
> shooting people who leave their homes with rubber bullets, Talk about misrepresenting facts to mislead. People who were rioting were met with force. These protesters weren't being peaceful, they were attacking camera crews and reporters. They were assaulting police officers. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/21/victoria-covid-update-rubber-bullets-fired-on-second-day-of-construction-protests-which-block-freeway https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/21/victo... > it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences It's not. If you're talking about the quarantine system that's under trial, yeah, I'm not particularly keen on that either. It's optional. You can choose to stay in hotel quarantine instead.
- iammisc 5y ago
  You know as much as I hated the rowdy George Floyd protestors in my city of Portland, I'm glad my government faces responsibility instead of blind acceptance by its constituents
- calvinmorrison 5y ago
  That's because 'protesting' is illegal lmao.
  - nhinck 5y ago
    Protesting is not illegal
    - postingawayonhn 5y ago
      Yes it is. In Victoria there are only 4 reasons to leave your home and gatherings are heavily restricted.
      - nhinck 5y ago
        So you can leave your house and meet up with 9 other people and protest for up to four hours? Please point out where protesting is illegal.
mbo 5y ago
I will attempt to rationalise the "surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences". It is vastly preferable to the hotel quarantine system. I was the "victim" of the hotel quarantine system, when I re-entered a Covid-free Queensland from in-the-middle-of-an-outbreak-New South Wales a few months ago. Australia has been mostly unvaccinated until recently[1] due to a botched vaccine procurement process[0] by the federal government. After a quarantine leak in NSW[2], harsh interstate border controls were implemented by all other states, including quarantining of all interstate travellers from NSW in hotels. Cases leaked into Victoria and the ACT and started their own outbreaks[3,4], but the remaining states are still Covid-free. The requirements described in [5] are a significant easing of freedoms for interstate travellers. I would personally have loved to have quarantined in my own home, and if I need to send a photo of myself occasionally, so be it. I think it is a justified exchange of privacy in exchange for, in the example of Queensland (population 5.185 million), only 558[6] local cases and 7 deaths over the entire pandemic. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/world/asia/japan-south-korea-australia-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/world/asia/japan-south-ko... [1] https://chrisbillington.net/aus_vaccinations.html https://chrisbillington.net/aus_vaccinations.html [2] https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_NSW.html https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_NSW.html [3] https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_VIC_2021.html https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_VIC_2021.html [4] https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_ACT.html https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_ACT.html [5] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-australias-home-quarantine-trial-work/100398878 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-austra... [6] https://covidlive.com.au/qld https://covidlive.com.au/qld
baazaa 5y ago
People are too quick to blame the media. Whatever you want to say about Murdoch, he's not a huge fan of perpetual lockdowns and so forth, and he owns half our media. The problem in Australia is not the media or the politicians, it's the actual electorate. Ordinary Australians pine for despotism. Unfortunately the general public are the last group outsiders think to blame, so there's this real mismatch between their theories of what's happening in Australia versus the on-the-ground reality.
tjmc 5y ago
Why is it normal for Americans to wear a monitoring bracelet on their ankle at home? See what I did there? Please don't spread deliberate misinformation.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

na85 5y ago

>why it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences. Say what? Got a link?

k1t 5y ago
Might be this: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-australias-home-quarantine-trial-work/100398878 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-austra... https://katv.com/news/coronavirus/new-program-tracks-quarantining-australians-via-app-requires-selfies-for-proof https://katv.com/news/coronavirus/new-program-tracks-quarant... [Home quarantining] participants will receive advice via the smartphone app as to their obligation at random times to provide the selfie back to the public health teams. Should that not be responded to in a period of time, follow up calls or visits are made so as to make sure that the person is where they should be,” Foley explained.
- na85 5y ago
  That's heinous.
  - javagram 5y ago
    Seems less heinous than spreading a dangerous virus and killing hundreds or thousands of citizens? We’ve seen other countries try that approach (e.g. here in the USA) and it clearly harms society and has led to massive suffering and loss of life. Considering this is being trialed as an alternative to being locked under guard in a hotel or cabin for two weeks, it’s actually less invasive too…
    - randomhodler84 5y ago
      And this is the problem with slippery slopes. I find the facial recognition gps tracking apps to be horribly intrusive and not a good alternative to being locked up in a hotel, which is also awful. They always pull this crap, and society ends up accepting the lesser of two evils. Like the meme, always has been.
      - javagram 5y ago
        Centuries ago, people had to be locked up for 40 or 50 days on a small ship (the original “quarantine”) to prevent spreading disease before they’d be allowed in. Modern technology reducing it to 14 days and a few photos in the comfort of your home seems an improvement, not a slippery slope.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
      That’s a horrible way to look at it. There are so many alternative ways to enforce a quarantine / lockdown without having to resort to such invasive things. If you use the justification of “harming society” and “massive suffering and loss of life” you can justify way more than just fighting COVID-19. Slippery slope aside, why can’t the government merely enforce the curfew by telling citizens not to leave their homes instead of forcing them to take selfies at random intervals? If you don’t comply they send the police to your home. If you don’t comply out of protest, they’ll jail you for your safety, where you’re more likely to catch the disease they’re trying to keep you from catching. Pure insanity.
    - na85 5y ago
      >Seems less heinous than spreading a dangerous virus and killing hundreds or thousands of citizens? Since when is the choice between "in-home photo surveillance" and "intentionally spreading COVID"?
      - javagram 5y ago

vkou 5y ago

It's normal for a quarantine. Would you prefer to be locked up in supervised quarantine[1][2][3], instead? [1] https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/quarantine-stations-us.html https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/quarantine-stations-us.html [2] https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/historyquarantine.html https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/historyquarantine.html [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine#Modern_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine#Modern_history

chroem- 5y ago
Anyone who has crossed state lines in the last two weeks is required to follow those quarantine measures. They have fewer than 10 deaths per state combined with very high vaccination rates. From the outside looking in, it seems wholly unjustified.
- _kbh_ 5y ago
  The reason we have such low deaths is because of the measures in place. They are slowly changing as vaccination targets are met and life should be back to normalish by December.
  - kongin 5y ago
    And yet we heard the same thing last December. Things aren't going back to normal, when Australia opens up regardless of vaccination status thousands of people will die if they are lucky and tens of thousands if they are not. The vaccines have been a huge disappointment with constant goal post moving the only way to keep people from noticing.
  - AndrewBissell 5y ago
    How will the Australian state's vaccination targets be met without maintaining the restrictions which are used to coerce people into getting vaccinated? Things might be somewhat relaxed by December just because it's summer in Australia, but I have a hard time seeing you go the way of "just live with it like the flu" like Denmark or Singapore over the long term.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

C19is20 5y ago

Is it common for people in Australia to leave home with rubber bullets?

pedalpete 5y ago
That was my reaction!!! They're attempting to equate anybody who leaves their home with being a rioter who attacked police.

ntSean 5y ago

> police are justified in shooting people who leave their homes with rubber bullets This is not true at all. As an Australian who has been following protests closely and the police response, they are clearly only shooting rubber bullets at those who are: - Throwing glass bottles at police - Attacking "fake news" journalists - Damaging buildings and monuments. Black Lives Matter protests peacefully marched through the city last year and no rubber bullets were used. > why it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences Unless you're in quarantine, this is not a requirement. Are you suggesting that we should not have a quarantine program? Or continue to use hotels, which are ill-equip for quarantining, and lead to the initial outbreaks here in Australia? > I guess strict authoritarianism must be accompanied with equally strict media propaganda. Media diversity has never been worse. I agree that things need to change. That however, has nothing to do with CHO directives.

TapWaterBandit 5y ago
Police going door to door in NSW/VIC investigating protestors against lockdowns months after they have occurred. I assume you will support similar surveillance of BLM protestors? NSW: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/23/australia_police_goes_door_to_door_are_you_aware_of_any_planned_protests_or_events_coming_up.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/23/australia... VIC: https://twitter.com/sullydish/status/1447314509949984768 https://twitter.com/sullydish/status/1447314509949984768
- paranoidrobot 5y ago
  The NSW one it's not clear from the context whether that person was at a protest. The second one it's pretty clear they were. I don't know which protests they were, but a number of anti-lockdown/vaccine protests were violent, which is likely the reason the police were investigating. That it's months later is almost certainly because police have been going through a shitload of leads. The same thing is happening in the US where people suspected of participating in the January 6 riots are/were being investigated months after events.
  - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

paranoidrobot 5y ago

> shooting people who leave their homes with rubber bullets, Talk about misrepresenting facts to mislead. People who were rioting were met with force. These protesters weren't being peaceful, they were attacking camera crews and reporters. They were assaulting police officers. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/21/victoria-covid-update-rubber-bullets-fired-on-second-day-of-construction-protests-which-block-freeway https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/21/victo... > it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences It's not. If you're talking about the quarantine system that's under trial, yeah, I'm not particularly keen on that either. It's optional. You can choose to stay in hotel quarantine instead.

iammisc 5y ago
You know as much as I hated the rowdy George Floyd protestors in my city of Portland, I'm glad my government faces responsibility instead of blind acceptance by its constituents
calvinmorrison 5y ago
That's because 'protesting' is illegal lmao.
- nhinck 5y ago
  Protesting is not illegal
  - postingawayonhn 5y ago
    Yes it is. In Victoria there are only 4 reasons to leave your home and gatherings are heavily restricted.
    - nhinck 5y ago
      So you can leave your house and meet up with 9 other people and protest for up to four hours? Please point out where protesting is illegal.

mbo 5y ago

I will attempt to rationalise the "surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences". It is vastly preferable to the hotel quarantine system. I was the "victim" of the hotel quarantine system, when I re-entered a Covid-free Queensland from in-the-middle-of-an-outbreak-New South Wales a few months ago. Australia has been mostly unvaccinated until recently[1] due to a botched vaccine procurement process[0] by the federal government. After a quarantine leak in NSW[2], harsh interstate border controls were implemented by all other states, including quarantining of all interstate travellers from NSW in hotels. Cases leaked into Victoria and the ACT and started their own outbreaks[3,4], but the remaining states are still Covid-free. The requirements described in [5] are a significant easing of freedoms for interstate travellers. I would personally have loved to have quarantined in my own home, and if I need to send a photo of myself occasionally, so be it. I think it is a justified exchange of privacy in exchange for, in the example of Queensland (population 5.185 million), only 558[6] local cases and 7 deaths over the entire pandemic. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/world/asia/japan-south-korea-australia-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/world/asia/japan-south-ko... [1] https://chrisbillington.net/aus_vaccinations.html https://chrisbillington.net/aus_vaccinations.html [2] https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_NSW.html https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_NSW.html [3] https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_VIC_2021.html https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_VIC_2021.html [4] https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_ACT.html https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_ACT.html [5] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-australias-home-quarantine-trial-work/100398878 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-austra... [6] https://covidlive.com.au/qld https://covidlive.com.au/qld

baazaa 5y ago

People are too quick to blame the media. Whatever you want to say about Murdoch, he's not a huge fan of perpetual lockdowns and so forth, and he owns half our media. The problem in Australia is not the media or the politicians, it's the actual electorate. Ordinary Australians pine for despotism. Unfortunately the general public are the last group outsiders think to blame, so there's this real mismatch between their theories of what's happening in Australia versus the on-the-ground reality.

tjmc 5y ago

Why is it normal for Americans to wear a monitoring bracelet on their ankle at home? See what I did there? Please don't spread deliberate misinformation.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]