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Are they still taught to do NDB approaches? I thought that's been phased out, too. In fact I was told the other day that the US officially tuned off the NDBs? D

by anyfoo 5y ago

Are they still taught to do NDB approaches? I thought that's been phased out, too. In fact I was told the other day that the US officially tuned off the NDBs? Does not apply to VORs then, but as you say, the fact that they get phased out more and more is concerning.

bdash 5y ago
Most VORs are being phased out as well, with only a minimum network left in place to support routing flights on instrument flight plans to airports with non-GPS approaches (i.e., ILS) in the event of a GPS outage. [1]: https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports-and-airspace/navigation-and-charting/vor-minimum-operational-network https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports-and-airspace/navigati...
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > Most VORs are being phased out as well […] "Most" VORs are not being phased out. The FAA is going from around 950 to about 590: about one-third are being retired.
RNCTX 5y ago
There are no more usable NDBs in/around most bravo cities. The last one in DFW was decommissioned about 3 years ago. Any other ones that are still functional are on borrowed time. Furthermore, no one is making the receivers anymore. If you have an NDB needle in the panel you are flying an airplane with some awfully old gauges....
redis_mlc 5y ago
Most US pilots could not fly an NDB approach using a simple ADF today, and would end up dead in mountainous terrain. The reason is that you have to practise doing relative bearings and wind corrections in your head, or else you fly in a spiral towards the station (unlike VOR, which displays absolute radials.) That means you will be off the protected approach path, and can hit obstacles. If they could fly an ADF, then AM radio stations can be used if necessary. (Airlines used to pay local radio stations to do a station identification announcement upon a phone call from ops, with the radio station typically near a coastline.) Just don't hit the radio station antenna! Note that NDB and VOR approaches are non-precision, which means they have lateral guidance but not vertical. So with low clouds, you won't get descent info to the runway like ILS. That's a big deal for airlines, since they have company operations minimums that may not even allow NDB approaches, which are more restrictive than standard Part 91 (GA) operations minimums. For example, there are situations where I can takeoff in a Cessna with 0/0, that airlines can't. Great discussion forum on navigating using radio stations: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/commercial-am-stations-on-the-adf.44882/ https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/commercial... Source: commercially-rated airplane pilot.

by anyfoo 5y ago

bdash 5y ago

Most VORs are being phased out as well, with only a minimum network left in place to support routing flights on instrument flight plans to airports with non-GPS approaches (i.e., ILS) in the event of a GPS outage. [1]: https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports-and-airspace/navigation-and-charting/vor-minimum-operational-network https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports-and-airspace/navigati...

throw0101a 5y ago
> Most VORs are being phased out as well […] "Most" VORs are not being phased out. The FAA is going from around 950 to about 590: about one-third are being retired.

RNCTX 5y ago

There are no more usable NDBs in/around most bravo cities. The last one in DFW was decommissioned about 3 years ago. Any other ones that are still functional are on borrowed time. Furthermore, no one is making the receivers anymore. If you have an NDB needle in the panel you are flying an airplane with some awfully old gauges....

redis_mlc 5y ago

Most US pilots could not fly an NDB approach using a simple ADF today, and would end up dead in mountainous terrain. The reason is that you have to practise doing relative bearings and wind corrections in your head, or else you fly in a spiral towards the station (unlike VOR, which displays absolute radials.) That means you will be off the protected approach path, and can hit obstacles. If they could fly an ADF, then AM radio stations can be used if necessary. (Airlines used to pay local radio stations to do a station identification announcement upon a phone call from ops, with the radio station typically near a coastline.) Just don't hit the radio station antenna! Note that NDB and VOR approaches are non-precision, which means they have lateral guidance but not vertical. So with low clouds, you won't get descent info to the runway like ILS. That's a big deal for airlines, since they have company operations minimums that may not even allow NDB approaches, which are more restrictive than standard Part 91 (GA) operations minimums. For example, there are situations where I can takeoff in a Cessna with 0/0, that airlines can't. Great discussion forum on navigating using radio stations: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/commercial-am-stations-on-the-adf.44882/ https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/commercial... Source: commercially-rated airplane pilot.