5 ms·

I remember when margarine, and other plant based fats were being touted as the healthier alternative to animal fats, and in the end, it turned out that these ar

I remember when margarine, and other plant based fats were being touted as the healthier alternative to animal fats, and in the end, it turned out that these artificially oxidized plant oils ended up being a direct cause of heart disease. I'm afraid of products such as these for the same reason, because we have no long term health data. I'm happy to eat plants of all sorts, in their natural form. A slurry of plant fats and proteins which approximates eggs sounds like nasty factory runoff.

satya71 5y ago
Could you please cite your sources for your claims? They are rather bold and contrary to what I've learned.
- tengbretson 5y ago
  > I remember when... > I'm afraid... > I'm happy to... It seems a little absurd to me to ask the OP to cite the source(s) of their thoughts, emotions and memories.
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  A quick search readily brings up multiple articles about margarine and heart disease. Women who eat four or more teaspoons of margarine a day have a 50 percent greater risk of developing heart disease than women who eat margarine only once a month http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/05/us/study-links-heart-disease-to-margarine.html http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/05/us/study-links-heart-disea... Margarine intake and subsequent coronary heart disease in ... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9229205 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9229205 Butter vs. Margarine - Harvard Health https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/butter-vs-margarine https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/butter-vs-mar...
  - tuukkah 5y ago
    From the Harvard Health link: > From the standpoint of heart disease, butter remains on the list of foods to use sparingly mostly because it is high in saturated fat. [--] Some of the newer margarines that are low in saturated fat, high in unsaturated fat, and free of trans fats are fine as long as you don't use too much (they are still rich in calories).
    - DoreenMichele 5y ago
      I would say the jury is still out on newer margarines. Give it a few years before drawing conclusions. Our understanding of food chemistry is still in its infancy and we routinely overturn things that have been "common knowledge" in this area. Plus it doesn't have any bearing on the detail that such articles can be readily found with a quick search, so there's no need to ask the OP to cite their sources.
  - satya71 5y ago
    Ah makes sense. Trans-fats were definitely bad. But you can get trans-fat free and even lower staturated fat content margarine today.
- smegcicle 5y ago
  could you cite what you've learned? everything oppositelock asserted sounds like common knowledge to me
opinionbanned 5y ago
don't be anti-plant
- dang 5y ago
  I've banned this account for trolling. Doing this on HN will get your main account banned as well, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
drukenemo 5y ago
Good point. Another issue I take with these substitutes are the amount of ingredients used to make the fake counterparts. Whilst a burger is most meat, a “veggie burger” contains dozens of highly processed ones.
- r00fus 5y ago
  > Whilst a burger is most meat Meat that is fed almost exclusively corn: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/that-burger-youre-eating-is-mostly-corn/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/that-burger-youre... It's not exactly healthy either.
- lapetitejort 5y ago
  There's three classes of veggies burgers to me: the old fake patties, such as Boca burger; the newer, less pretentious patties full of recognizable veggies; and the latest, ultra-processed fake meat, such as Impossible and Beyond. The second class, the ones not afraid to show they're just beans, grains, and veggies shaped like a disk, are the most appealing to me. They're also the most versatile.
  - RhysU 5y ago
    As a meat eater I liked the occasional Boca burger. They were always just stupid expensive (recollecting college) and never stuck in my mind as a periodic way to reduce meat consumption. But I am one of those people with a hybrid only because I like the gas mileage.
- ascorbic 5y ago
  What's wrong with having lots of ingredients?
DoreenMichele 5y ago
I'm happy to eat plants of all sorts, in their natural form. A slurry of plant fats and proteins which approximates eggs sounds like nasty factory runoff. I don't get this trend anyway. There are lots of perfectly good vegetarian dishes out there. Why do we have to whore out the food industry to the tastes of meat eaters in the name of saving the planet? Can't wannabe "virtuous" meat eaters learn to eat vegetarian foods without making them look and taste like meat? The whole thing is some form of insanity. (For the record: I eat semi-vegetarian in that I eat less meat than most Americans and some meals are meatless. I have been accused of being vegetarian by meat-and-potatoes people and vegetarians also openly hate on me for my "crimes" of eating a sensible diet that fails to fall into either political camp.)
- throwanem 5y ago
  It wouldn't surprise me if this were less about saving the planet and more about hedging against the possibility that factory farming ceases to be sustainable such that prices for real meat increase enormously. Such a circumstance would create a huge new market for relatively inexpensive meat substitutes, competing on palatability probably far more than nutrition.
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    Yes, someone with more business sense than me who is also more invested in turning a profit smells money. That's basically the real reason it gets done. If people really want to save the planet and eat less meat as part of that goal, there are better ways to achieve that. But those ways tend to be harder to monetize effectively than creating a product that inflexible, overprivileged people will snap up and feel virtuous about.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  I'm a big proponent of vegetarianism, and I think there's a lot of value in these "transitional meats." I've convinced one friend to vegetarianism over the years by cooking "meat-like" replacements for them... this is the type of person who might say "oh I've considered it before, but I could never give up hamburgers" to a vegetarian. Overall if the goal is meat reduction, then it's a win if you can get someone to occasionally buy a transitional meat instead of the real thing. I've had more luck trying to get people to eat plant-based meat-likes than cricket-based foods, anyway.
Klonoar 5y ago
I invite a food scientist or some such type to correct me (it's HN, so there's probably one lurking around somewhere), but the margarine issue was due to high concentrations of trans-fats coupled with the already high concentrations of saturated fat. I believe a number of the "vegan" butters on market shelves today strive to avoid this issue, hence it's not necessarily the same... or, rather, to put it another way: just because something was done wrong once doesn't mean it can't be tried again with a better formula. It's not like regular butter is being phased out here, and people really shouldn't be consuming so much of this stuff (butter or vegan butter) period.
ReGenGen 5y ago
This sounds sounds like conflating plant-based foods with hydrogenated oils from the early "low fat" days. Do you have some specific concerns? Specific processes? Specific ingredients? (like heme iron https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/heme-iron/ https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/heme-iron/ )
lm28469 5y ago
Nature is very kind and provides enough food to survive even without meat. I personally avoid all these ultra processed plant based products targeted to vegetarians/vegans and favor classic veggies/fruits Don't forget that in the game of capitalism companies are in a never ending quest to develop new products, this simply is the next iteration. Just like cigarettes and alcohol were marketed as medicine, these things will be marketed as climate change or animal cruelty solutions I don't believe that food, like many other industries, needs to be disrupted. I'll stick to veggies and fruit, pasta, bread, local stuff if possible &c. all the basics we've been eating for hundreds of years, processed food is poison, plant based or not
elif 5y ago
you don't think there's long term health data for things like pea protein, soy protein, and omega-3 fatty acids?
jhanschoo 5y ago
> A slurry of plant fats and proteins which approximates eggs sounds like nasty factory runoff. Assuming that you're talking about all plant-based processed foods with this, you can pry tofu and vegan breads from my cold, dead hands.

satya71 5y ago

Could you please cite your sources for your claims? They are rather bold and contrary to what I've learned.

tengbretson 5y ago
> I remember when... > I'm afraid... > I'm happy to... It seems a little absurd to me to ask the OP to cite the source(s) of their thoughts, emotions and memories.
DoreenMichele 5y ago
A quick search readily brings up multiple articles about margarine and heart disease. Women who eat four or more teaspoons of margarine a day have a 50 percent greater risk of developing heart disease than women who eat margarine only once a month http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/05/us/study-links-heart-disease-to-margarine.html http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/05/us/study-links-heart-disea... Margarine intake and subsequent coronary heart disease in ... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9229205 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9229205 Butter vs. Margarine - Harvard Health https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/butter-vs-margarine https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/butter-vs-mar...
- tuukkah 5y ago
  From the Harvard Health link: > From the standpoint of heart disease, butter remains on the list of foods to use sparingly mostly because it is high in saturated fat. [--] Some of the newer margarines that are low in saturated fat, high in unsaturated fat, and free of trans fats are fine as long as you don't use too much (they are still rich in calories).
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    I would say the jury is still out on newer margarines. Give it a few years before drawing conclusions. Our understanding of food chemistry is still in its infancy and we routinely overturn things that have been "common knowledge" in this area. Plus it doesn't have any bearing on the detail that such articles can be readily found with a quick search, so there's no need to ask the OP to cite their sources.
- satya71 5y ago
  Ah makes sense. Trans-fats were definitely bad. But you can get trans-fat free and even lower staturated fat content margarine today.
smegcicle 5y ago
could you cite what you've learned? everything oppositelock asserted sounds like common knowledge to me

opinionbanned 5y ago

don't be anti-plant

dang 5y ago
I've banned this account for trolling. Doing this on HN will get your main account banned as well, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

drukenemo 5y ago

Good point. Another issue I take with these substitutes are the amount of ingredients used to make the fake counterparts. Whilst a burger is most meat, a “veggie burger” contains dozens of highly processed ones.

r00fus 5y ago
> Whilst a burger is most meat Meat that is fed almost exclusively corn: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/that-burger-youre-eating-is-mostly-corn/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/that-burger-youre... It's not exactly healthy either.
lapetitejort 5y ago
There's three classes of veggies burgers to me: the old fake patties, such as Boca burger; the newer, less pretentious patties full of recognizable veggies; and the latest, ultra-processed fake meat, such as Impossible and Beyond. The second class, the ones not afraid to show they're just beans, grains, and veggies shaped like a disk, are the most appealing to me. They're also the most versatile.
- RhysU 5y ago
  As a meat eater I liked the occasional Boca burger. They were always just stupid expensive (recollecting college) and never stuck in my mind as a periodic way to reduce meat consumption. But I am one of those people with a hybrid only because I like the gas mileage.
ascorbic 5y ago
What's wrong with having lots of ingredients?

DoreenMichele 5y ago

I'm happy to eat plants of all sorts, in their natural form. A slurry of plant fats and proteins which approximates eggs sounds like nasty factory runoff. I don't get this trend anyway. There are lots of perfectly good vegetarian dishes out there. Why do we have to whore out the food industry to the tastes of meat eaters in the name of saving the planet? Can't wannabe "virtuous" meat eaters learn to eat vegetarian foods without making them look and taste like meat? The whole thing is some form of insanity. (For the record: I eat semi-vegetarian in that I eat less meat than most Americans and some meals are meatless. I have been accused of being vegetarian by meat-and-potatoes people and vegetarians also openly hate on me for my "crimes" of eating a sensible diet that fails to fall into either political camp.)

throwanem 5y ago
It wouldn't surprise me if this were less about saving the planet and more about hedging against the possibility that factory farming ceases to be sustainable such that prices for real meat increase enormously. Such a circumstance would create a huge new market for relatively inexpensive meat substitutes, competing on palatability probably far more than nutrition.
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  Yes, someone with more business sense than me who is also more invested in turning a profit smells money. That's basically the real reason it gets done. If people really want to save the planet and eat less meat as part of that goal, there are better ways to achieve that. But those ways tend to be harder to monetize effectively than creating a product that inflexible, overprivileged people will snap up and feel virtuous about.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
I'm a big proponent of vegetarianism, and I think there's a lot of value in these "transitional meats." I've convinced one friend to vegetarianism over the years by cooking "meat-like" replacements for them... this is the type of person who might say "oh I've considered it before, but I could never give up hamburgers" to a vegetarian. Overall if the goal is meat reduction, then it's a win if you can get someone to occasionally buy a transitional meat instead of the real thing. I've had more luck trying to get people to eat plant-based meat-likes than cricket-based foods, anyway.

Klonoar 5y ago

I invite a food scientist or some such type to correct me (it's HN, so there's probably one lurking around somewhere), but the margarine issue was due to high concentrations of trans-fats coupled with the already high concentrations of saturated fat. I believe a number of the "vegan" butters on market shelves today strive to avoid this issue, hence it's not necessarily the same... or, rather, to put it another way: just because something was done wrong once doesn't mean it can't be tried again with a better formula. It's not like regular butter is being phased out here, and people really shouldn't be consuming so much of this stuff (butter or vegan butter) period.

ReGenGen 5y ago

This sounds sounds like conflating plant-based foods with hydrogenated oils from the early "low fat" days. Do you have some specific concerns? Specific processes? Specific ingredients? (like heme iron https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/heme-iron/ https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/heme-iron/ )

lm28469 5y ago

Nature is very kind and provides enough food to survive even without meat. I personally avoid all these ultra processed plant based products targeted to vegetarians/vegans and favor classic veggies/fruits Don't forget that in the game of capitalism companies are in a never ending quest to develop new products, this simply is the next iteration. Just like cigarettes and alcohol were marketed as medicine, these things will be marketed as climate change or animal cruelty solutions I don't believe that food, like many other industries, needs to be disrupted. I'll stick to veggies and fruit, pasta, bread, local stuff if possible &c. all the basics we've been eating for hundreds of years, processed food is poison, plant based or not

elif 5y ago

you don't think there's long term health data for things like pea protein, soy protein, and omega-3 fatty acids?

jhanschoo 5y ago

> A slurry of plant fats and proteins which approximates eggs sounds like nasty factory runoff. Assuming that you're talking about all plant-based processed foods with this, you can pry tofu and vegan breads from my cold, dead hands.