3 ms·

"But renewables are much harder to monopolize so the big players never really wanted to support them." Compared to nuclear power? Yeah. Almost by default getti

"But renewables are much harder to monopolize so the big players never really wanted to support them." Compared to nuclear power? Yeah. Almost by default getting nuclear power up and running requires government intervention and this is where it hurts. There is no privatization money to skim ( unlike renewables ). It is monopolized, but it is monopolized the way government monopolizes things ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly ). "if we poured the trillions that have been poured into nuclear into renewables the world already would be a lot nicer. " It is possible ( I was wrong before ), but I would like you to consider the following: Solar panels require rare earths. They are called rare not for shits and giggles. What do you think will happen when entire Earth starts looking for them. Consider scalability issues and all of a sudden, digging for oil looks better. We have an interesting view of the coming attractions with Tesla ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/musk-says-nickel-is-biggest-concern-for-electric-car-batteries https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-25/musk-says... ) and some of the tall tales of him supporting a coup to get the resources he needed. Similar list of issues run for other renewables with possible exception of geothermal, so I think 'a lot nicer' may be a bit of exaggeration. It is going to sound really cynical, but to me it sounds like pockets where the money reside will change. That is it. With nuclear -- some of that money will dry up. Hence, partially, the cry out against it.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Rare earths aren't rare. Nor are they earths. It's just an old name
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  I suppose we can play a semantic game, but it does not change the actual result does it? They could be called Albino Chickens for all I care. Rare earths are rare on the market right now, because China managed to monopolize the market. To make it more amusing, extraction of those materials is not exactly easy on the environment, which makes it less likely that Western countries will allow it in their backyard. With that out of the way what about my argument is wrong?
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    > solar panels require rare earths. They don't require them, and most common ones don't even use them. We already covered Rare Earths not being rare, but since they're not really a big limiter on renewable energy anyway, it doesn't really matter. So, to a rough approximation, everything is wrong with your argument.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
    Self inflicted. See [1 - 2015] https://www.hcn.org/issues/47.11/why-rare-earth-mining-in-the-west-is-a-bust https://www.hcn.org/issues/47.11/why-rare-earth-mining-in-th... [2 - Info] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine But seems to be in reversal [3 - 2019] https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/11/12/the-collapse-of-american-rare-earth-mining-and-lessons-learned/ https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/11/12/th... [4] https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/projects/mountain-pass-rare-earth-mine/# https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/projects/mountain-pass-rare... [5] https://www.wyomingmining.org/minerals/rare-earths/ https://www.wyomingmining.org/minerals/rare-earths/ [6 - 2019] https://web.archive.org/web/20210722231308/https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/cir1454 https://web.archive.org/web/20210722231308/https://pubs.er.u... [7 - 2020] https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2020/11/20/mining-company-determined-to-restore-us-rare-earth-supply-chain https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2020/11/20/... [8 - 2021] https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/2021/09/09/critical-minerals-alliances/made-in-north-america-rare-earths-return/683.html https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/2021/09/09/critical-mine... Dig it?
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
      It is a lot of information to digest, but I appreciate it. Lemme dig through it. Some questions do pop up though along the lines of 'everything shortage'.
  - philipkglass 5y ago
    With that out of the way what about my argument is wrong? Solar panels do not use rare earth elements. The only element that's fairly rare and commonly used in solar panels is silver, which is used in conductive pastes for cell contacts.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

Rare earths aren't rare. Nor are they earths. It's just an old name

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I suppose we can play a semantic game, but it does not change the actual result does it? They could be called Albino Chickens for all I care. Rare earths are rare on the market right now, because China managed to monopolize the market. To make it more amusing, extraction of those materials is not exactly easy on the environment, which makes it less likely that Western countries will allow it in their backyard. With that out of the way what about my argument is wrong?
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  > solar panels require rare earths. They don't require them, and most common ones don't even use them. We already covered Rare Earths not being rare, but since they're not really a big limiter on renewable energy anyway, it doesn't really matter. So, to a rough approximation, everything is wrong with your argument.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  Self inflicted. See [1 - 2015] https://www.hcn.org/issues/47.11/why-rare-earth-mining-in-the-west-is-a-bust https://www.hcn.org/issues/47.11/why-rare-earth-mining-in-th... [2 - Info] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine But seems to be in reversal [3 - 2019] https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/11/12/the-collapse-of-american-rare-earth-mining-and-lessons-learned/ https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/11/12/th... [4] https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/projects/mountain-pass-rare-earth-mine/# https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/projects/mountain-pass-rare... [5] https://www.wyomingmining.org/minerals/rare-earths/ https://www.wyomingmining.org/minerals/rare-earths/ [6 - 2019] https://web.archive.org/web/20210722231308/https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/cir1454 https://web.archive.org/web/20210722231308/https://pubs.er.u... [7 - 2020] https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2020/11/20/mining-company-determined-to-restore-us-rare-earth-supply-chain https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2020/11/20/... [8 - 2021] https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/2021/09/09/critical-minerals-alliances/made-in-north-america-rare-earths-return/683.html https://www.metaltechnews.com/story/2021/09/09/critical-mine... Dig it?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    It is a lot of information to digest, but I appreciate it. Lemme dig through it. Some questions do pop up though along the lines of 'everything shortage'.
- philipkglass 5y ago
  With that out of the way what about my argument is wrong? Solar panels do not use rare earth elements. The only element that's fairly rare and commonly used in solar panels is silver, which is used in conductive pastes for cell contacts.