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Your complaint is whether the word "reclaim" or "invade" is used? Why do you think your word choice is right when the leader of Taiwan seems to disagree? Recla

Your complaint is whether the word "reclaim" or "invade" is used? Why do you think your word choice is right when the leader of Taiwan seems to disagree? Reclaiming something against the wishes of the local population is still invading, it just denies agency to the human beings that live there as if they agreed to that outcome. It's like the US saying they are going to liberate Iraqis when, no, it still involved an invasion... Are you arguing that the population of Taiwan actually is super into being part of the PRC and that the media makes it seem otherwise? I don't think that polling agrees with you, their actions don't seem to agree with you, my friends in Taiwan definitely don't agree with you, but obviously the media is adept at influencing public opinion. I believe it's theoretically possible, but knowing people in Taiwan and knowing their opinion makes me skeptical. I know there's sampling bias in that they are fluent in English and highly educated people who I know personally, of course.

encoderer 5y ago
[flagged]
- neltnerb 5y ago
  I agree, but do try to keep an open mind. This "reclaim" stuff seems like it really doesn't recognize the reality of the civil war at all, it just comes off as a way to make invading peaceful neighbors whose stuff you want seem like it's the status quo rather than an extreme step opposed in force by the local population. It makes no sense. I'm sure the media is biased towards prioritizing reporting about the India/China border conflict, the China/Taiwan conflict, the China/Vietnam conflict, the China/Indonesia conflict... but still, those are all significant conflicts. I buy that they're being more heavily reported on, but not that the facts are literally incorrect. It's not like I'm getting news from NPR, and the publisher definitely has no great attachement to US hegemony.
  - FooBarWidget 5y ago
    I'm Chinese so I have seen both sides of opinions. Here are some alternative perspectives. Your comment seems to be saying: because the fighting stopped for so long and because the Taiwan side largely wishes to separate, they have a moral right to do so. This fits with the western self-determination principle. Yet this idea can create absolutely perverse incentives. The Chinese side could interpret this as: cease-fire is bad. In other words: China should never have stopped fighting, so that westerners cannot claim that Taiwan is a "peaceful neighbor". You see this sort of perverse incentive in the legal world. Disney cracks down on grandma who made a Micky Mouse shirt for her grandson because if Disney doesn't enforce their intellectual property rights then they will lose it. Another issue is that military activity on Taiwan from China is nearly always related to moves by forces that try to upend the status quo, e.g. US military activity or Taiwanese activists that push harder for official independence. For the example the latest fighter jet sorties are instigated by US warships nearby. Yet this relationship is nearly never reported by western MSM: they universally paint China's actions as unilateral aggression with no trigger. I'm all for peace. I also think that the status quo is the best way to achieve that. Unfortunately it seems westerners don't understand that China also prefers status quo. In thinking that China prefers military takeover, western countries create a situation (by sending warships to "defend" Taiwan) in which they encourage China to actually militarily take over. Insane. What's more, this tendency by the west to create self-fulfilling prophesies is not limited to the Taiwan issue, but also to many other Chinese issues. All because of the west's own biases and refusal to see China for what it is instead of what they think it is.
    - mensetmanusman 5y ago
      I wonder if China will fall for the trap being set (to take military action). China absolutely should wait another 50 years before making a move when they are squarely #1 in power and have settled differences with neighbors (who are all mad at them right now).
      - FooBarWidget 5y ago
        As for the neighbors: it's more complex than that. Many neighbors are also mad at each other. The disputes are not merely Chinese. I do hope for more resolutions. Some are already solved, but some are quite difficult.
- Shadonototra 5y ago
  [flagged]
Shadonototra 5y ago
for debates to be healthy, one must use the right words to describe a situation once proper description of the situation is done, one can argument whether something is good/bad fair/unfair legal/illegal an atrocity or something wonderful burning steps is the best way to not think properly and i'm not arguing anything, i state facts and i use the right words for it i don't care about what's gonna happen in the pacific, whether china gonna nuke the west coast first or it's gonna escalate with one of the US's paws aka australia, who cares? i also find it funny that you extrapolate what i may think, based on what? what did i say about the Taiwanese? i'm not qualified to have an opinion about it, but i'm qualified to state historical facts
- encoderer 5y ago
  > whether china gonna nuke the west coast first or it's gonna escalate with one of the US's paws aka australia, who cares? Oh good lord. Go away shill. At least you make yourself obvious.
  - Shadonototra 5y ago
    exactly, not thinking properly makes people forget what WAR is, and its effect on the people are you ready for war? i am not, therefore i stay honest and i use the right words to describe situations
  - Shadonototra 5y ago
    all my legitimate, argumented comments, all were flagged but this insult, is still not flagged care to explain pro-mossad moderators?
bumbada 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party All people in China mainland is taught that Taiwan is part of China and it is so ingrained on them that it is impossible to discuss this with them. And now that things are getting sour in China the CCP always uses the external enemy card to redirect the anger against others and not become beheaded themselves.
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  Meh. I'm Chinese and I think you're seriously overestimating the amount of influence CCP propaganda has on people's opinions, and seriously underestimating the genuineness of people's opinions on Taiwan. This is typical western bias: blaming everything on the CCP as if the people can't have any sort of agency or legitimate opinion that differs from the western mainstream. There is a saying that if China were democratic, then they would have invaded Taiwan yesterday. In this sense the CCP are moderates. I also can't believe that so many people accuse China of propping up an external enemy without taking a good hard look at their own country's behavior. It's this sort of lack of introspection that could eventually trigger WW3.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    The US was 80% against getting involved in WW2, so democracies aren’t as predictable as one would think.
  - ailun 5y ago
    I agree that there is a bad tendency to look at Chinese people as brainwashed drones. But you're going too far in the opposite direction. China's media control, educational policies, and army of nationalists absolutely affect the Overton window in the Chinese public sphere. You can't tell me with a straight face that it's acceptable to discuss Taiwan independence online in a positive way in China. If someone genuinely feels that mainstream opinion in China is wrong on Taiwan, they aren't going to be comfortable discussing it openly.
    - FooBarWidget 5y ago

encoderer 5y ago

[flagged]

neltnerb 5y ago
I agree, but do try to keep an open mind. This "reclaim" stuff seems like it really doesn't recognize the reality of the civil war at all, it just comes off as a way to make invading peaceful neighbors whose stuff you want seem like it's the status quo rather than an extreme step opposed in force by the local population. It makes no sense. I'm sure the media is biased towards prioritizing reporting about the India/China border conflict, the China/Taiwan conflict, the China/Vietnam conflict, the China/Indonesia conflict... but still, those are all significant conflicts. I buy that they're being more heavily reported on, but not that the facts are literally incorrect. It's not like I'm getting news from NPR, and the publisher definitely has no great attachement to US hegemony.
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  I'm Chinese so I have seen both sides of opinions. Here are some alternative perspectives. Your comment seems to be saying: because the fighting stopped for so long and because the Taiwan side largely wishes to separate, they have a moral right to do so. This fits with the western self-determination principle. Yet this idea can create absolutely perverse incentives. The Chinese side could interpret this as: cease-fire is bad. In other words: China should never have stopped fighting, so that westerners cannot claim that Taiwan is a "peaceful neighbor". You see this sort of perverse incentive in the legal world. Disney cracks down on grandma who made a Micky Mouse shirt for her grandson because if Disney doesn't enforce their intellectual property rights then they will lose it. Another issue is that military activity on Taiwan from China is nearly always related to moves by forces that try to upend the status quo, e.g. US military activity or Taiwanese activists that push harder for official independence. For the example the latest fighter jet sorties are instigated by US warships nearby. Yet this relationship is nearly never reported by western MSM: they universally paint China's actions as unilateral aggression with no trigger. I'm all for peace. I also think that the status quo is the best way to achieve that. Unfortunately it seems westerners don't understand that China also prefers status quo. In thinking that China prefers military takeover, western countries create a situation (by sending warships to "defend" Taiwan) in which they encourage China to actually militarily take over. Insane. What's more, this tendency by the west to create self-fulfilling prophesies is not limited to the Taiwan issue, but also to many other Chinese issues. All because of the west's own biases and refusal to see China for what it is instead of what they think it is.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    I wonder if China will fall for the trap being set (to take military action). China absolutely should wait another 50 years before making a move when they are squarely #1 in power and have settled differences with neighbors (who are all mad at them right now).
    - FooBarWidget 5y ago
      As for the neighbors: it's more complex than that. Many neighbors are also mad at each other. The disputes are not merely Chinese. I do hope for more resolutions. Some are already solved, but some are quite difficult.
Shadonototra 5y ago
[flagged]

Shadonototra 5y ago

for debates to be healthy, one must use the right words to describe a situation once proper description of the situation is done, one can argument whether something is good/bad fair/unfair legal/illegal an atrocity or something wonderful burning steps is the best way to not think properly and i'm not arguing anything, i state facts and i use the right words for it i don't care about what's gonna happen in the pacific, whether china gonna nuke the west coast first or it's gonna escalate with one of the US's paws aka australia, who cares? i also find it funny that you extrapolate what i may think, based on what? what did i say about the Taiwanese? i'm not qualified to have an opinion about it, but i'm qualified to state historical facts

encoderer 5y ago
> whether china gonna nuke the west coast first or it's gonna escalate with one of the US's paws aka australia, who cares? Oh good lord. Go away shill. At least you make yourself obvious.
- Shadonototra 5y ago
  exactly, not thinking properly makes people forget what WAR is, and its effect on the people are you ready for war? i am not, therefore i stay honest and i use the right words to describe situations
- Shadonototra 5y ago
  all my legitimate, argumented comments, all were flagged but this insult, is still not flagged care to explain pro-mossad moderators?

bumbada 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party All people in China mainland is taught that Taiwan is part of China and it is so ingrained on them that it is impossible to discuss this with them. And now that things are getting sour in China the CCP always uses the external enemy card to redirect the anger against others and not become beheaded themselves.

FooBarWidget 5y ago
Meh. I'm Chinese and I think you're seriously overestimating the amount of influence CCP propaganda has on people's opinions, and seriously underestimating the genuineness of people's opinions on Taiwan. This is typical western bias: blaming everything on the CCP as if the people can't have any sort of agency or legitimate opinion that differs from the western mainstream. There is a saying that if China were democratic, then they would have invaded Taiwan yesterday. In this sense the CCP are moderates. I also can't believe that so many people accuse China of propping up an external enemy without taking a good hard look at their own country's behavior. It's this sort of lack of introspection that could eventually trigger WW3.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  The US was 80% against getting involved in WW2, so democracies aren’t as predictable as one would think.
- ailun 5y ago
  I agree that there is a bad tendency to look at Chinese people as brainwashed drones. But you're going too far in the opposite direction. China's media control, educational policies, and army of nationalists absolutely affect the Overton window in the Chinese public sphere. You can't tell me with a straight face that it's acceptable to discuss Taiwan independence online in a positive way in China. If someone genuinely feels that mainstream opinion in China is wrong on Taiwan, they aren't going to be comfortable discussing it openly.
  - FooBarWidget 5y ago