4 ms·

Evidence of people on the Azores archipelago 700 years earlier than thought

76 points by Hooke 5y ago

theknocker 5y ago
Ok but this isn't going to make me forget about those cave things.
labster 5y ago
If the original settlers were Norse, are the Azores the real Vinland?
- rvense 5y ago
  What do you mean? I don't think there's any doubt that the Norse went to North America?
- aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
  No, because the sagas document meeting the indigenous people of Vinland.
- antupis 5y ago
  This might be more fitting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Brendan%27s_Island https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Brendan%27s_Island
  - ZanyProgrammer 5y ago
    Not every expedition has to match up with something historical/apocryphal. The hypothetical people who reached the Azores several hundreds of years earlier could very well just be the equivalent of historical randos.
trhway 5y ago
Beside Vikings, it may be these guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antillia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antillia "an old Iberian legend, set during the Muslim conquest of Hispania c. 714. Seeking to flee from the Muslim conquerors, seven Christian Visigothic bishops embarked with their flocks on ships and set sail westwards into the Atlantic Ocean, eventually landing on an island (Antilha) where they founded seven settlements."
- hanslub42 5y ago
  Possibly, but this would not answer the question of the origin of northern (mitochondrial) DNA in the local mice populations. (see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25394749/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25394749/)
nuerow 5y ago
The conclusions presented in the article seem a bit far-fetched. The article only mentions "upticks in charcoal particles (suggesting large fires had been burning)" and a presence of a "compound is typically found in the feces of livestock, such as cows and sheep". Given that large fires do occur naturally and don't require human intervention, it sounds quite a leap to jump from that onto "humans did it".
- ggm 5y ago
  I thought this too. But reading your criticism, I felt "yea, but this is a news-take on a peer review paper: They will have had to address this to get above the threshold for publication" eg correlates to other events, evidence of known occupied areas and confounding wildfire signals. Its like treerings. They're going to work with sediment levels which include strong signals of widespread events, and volcanic events nearby, and discount them scientifically
- PedroBatista 5y ago
  I don't know if it's in the article but I remember the authors saying something about being able distinguish between livestock and human feces given the compounds.
8bitsrule 5y ago
Looked over their evidence details [https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2021/09/30/2108236118.DCSupplemental/pnas.2108236118.sapp.pdf https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2021/09/30/210823611...]. Looks somewhat circumstancial. Hopefully it's enough to stimulate further search for something more substantial. Going by our national parks, if people stayed for a while, it's there.
napier 5y ago
Only tangentially connected to the article; but contemporary Azoreans believe the archipelago comprises the last remnants of Atlantis and if you ever take an opportunity to visit, you might see why.
- rodelrod 5y ago
  They "believe it" about as much as modern Englishmen believe King Arthur pulled a magical sword from a rock. It's a nice story to tell tourists.
  - jaclaz 5y ago
    Or as much as Italians believe to the legend of San Galgano, but at least we have the sword, he didn't throw it in a lake ;-): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galgano_Guidotti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galgano_Guidotti
- throw_smig 5y ago
  > Only tangentially connected to the article; but contemporary Azoreans believe the archipelago comprises the last remnants of Atlantis and if you ever take an opportunity to visit, you might see why. Azorean here (smiguel, Melo&Abreu, Santo Cristo, etc) and I have to call bullshit on this. We believe in Atlantis inasmuch as we believe that the Sete Cidades lagoon sprouted from the tears of a princess. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagoa_das_Sete_Cidades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagoa_das_Sete_Cidades
  - s5300 5y ago
    What do people think is the origin of the underwater pyramid in the area then?

76 points by Hooke 5y ago

theknocker 5y ago

Ok but this isn't going to make me forget about those cave things.

labster 5y ago

If the original settlers were Norse, are the Azores the real Vinland?

rvense 5y ago
What do you mean? I don't think there's any doubt that the Norse went to North America?
aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
No, because the sagas document meeting the indigenous people of Vinland.
antupis 5y ago
This might be more fitting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Brendan%27s_Island https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Brendan%27s_Island
- ZanyProgrammer 5y ago
  Not every expedition has to match up with something historical/apocryphal. The hypothetical people who reached the Azores several hundreds of years earlier could very well just be the equivalent of historical randos.

trhway 5y ago

Beside Vikings, it may be these guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antillia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antillia "an old Iberian legend, set during the Muslim conquest of Hispania c. 714. Seeking to flee from the Muslim conquerors, seven Christian Visigothic bishops embarked with their flocks on ships and set sail westwards into the Atlantic Ocean, eventually landing on an island (Antilha) where they founded seven settlements."

hanslub42 5y ago
Possibly, but this would not answer the question of the origin of northern (mitochondrial) DNA in the local mice populations. (see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25394749/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25394749/)

nuerow 5y ago

The conclusions presented in the article seem a bit far-fetched. The article only mentions "upticks in charcoal particles (suggesting large fires had been burning)" and a presence of a "compound is typically found in the feces of livestock, such as cows and sheep". Given that large fires do occur naturally and don't require human intervention, it sounds quite a leap to jump from that onto "humans did it".

ggm 5y ago
I thought this too. But reading your criticism, I felt "yea, but this is a news-take on a peer review paper: They will have had to address this to get above the threshold for publication" eg correlates to other events, evidence of known occupied areas and confounding wildfire signals. Its like treerings. They're going to work with sediment levels which include strong signals of widespread events, and volcanic events nearby, and discount them scientifically
PedroBatista 5y ago
I don't know if it's in the article but I remember the authors saying something about being able distinguish between livestock and human feces given the compounds.

8bitsrule 5y ago

Looked over their evidence details [https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2021/09/30/2108236118.DCSupplemental/pnas.2108236118.sapp.pdf https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2021/09/30/210823611...]. Looks somewhat circumstancial. Hopefully it's enough to stimulate further search for something more substantial. Going by our national parks, if people stayed for a while, it's there.

napier 5y ago

Only tangentially connected to the article; but contemporary Azoreans believe the archipelago comprises the last remnants of Atlantis and if you ever take an opportunity to visit, you might see why.

rodelrod 5y ago
They "believe it" about as much as modern Englishmen believe King Arthur pulled a magical sword from a rock. It's a nice story to tell tourists.
- jaclaz 5y ago
  Or as much as Italians believe to the legend of San Galgano, but at least we have the sword, he didn't throw it in a lake ;-): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galgano_Guidotti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galgano_Guidotti
throw_smig 5y ago
> Only tangentially connected to the article; but contemporary Azoreans believe the archipelago comprises the last remnants of Atlantis and if you ever take an opportunity to visit, you might see why. Azorean here (smiguel, Melo&Abreu, Santo Cristo, etc) and I have to call bullshit on this. We believe in Atlantis inasmuch as we believe that the Sete Cidades lagoon sprouted from the tears of a princess. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagoa_das_Sete_Cidades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagoa_das_Sete_Cidades
- s5300 5y ago
  What do people think is the origin of the underwater pyramid in the area then?