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Everything is ideological if you frame it in that context. By your logic, following the law is ideological. Not whistle blowing on illegal activities in some j

Everything is ideological if you frame it in that context. By your logic, following the law is ideological. Not whistle blowing on illegal activities in some jurisdictions is in itself illegal and makes you accessory to the crimes being committed. I wouldn't think that kind of whistle-blowing as ideological. P.S. Yes, I made a spelling mistake while typing a comment on the phone, I regret that and happy to learn when pointed out. Do keep in mind not everyone's first language is English, making fun of that is not a good way to encourage people to learn the language better, if new speakers stop putting in the effort to improve because the feedback is negative you( and we) don't get to interact with speakers from distant lands , learn new and interesting ideas.

samhw 5y ago
> Everything is ideological Pizza isn't ideological. Birds aren't ideological. Things that are explicitly in the domain of ideology are, yes, ideological. There's no such thing as 'no accent' just because you have the dominant accent, and no such thing as 'no ideology' just because you follow the dominant ideology. Your rationale is a bit like people who consider climate change protests to be 'political', but themselves, and their desire to ignore them and go to work, to be ... well, just, normal. Or something like that. > Do keep in mind not everyone's first language is English This is fair enough. I wasn't intending to mock your English, I just thought it was a funny accidental property of your message. I've absolutely made the same mistakes myself in the past!
jjk166 5y ago
The belief that laws ought to be followed is an ideology. There are also plenty of people who refuse to obey laws for ideological reasons. There are non-ideological reasons to follow laws as well, such as avoiding punishment, but that would presumably fall under coercion.
- manquer 5y ago
  If refusing to obey laws for ideological reasons they are doing some form of civil disobedience, that is still obeying the "law"[1]. Even when refusing to follow a specific law you still follow the Law, the point is that you willingly accept the consequence of your (in)action as per that law, i.e. that usually means go to jail. Thoreau's seminal essay or Gandhi or King's(and many others) writings talk about the topic in length . King actually frames civil disobedience as the expression of highest respect for the law. All behavior is motivated by either seeking gratification/pleasure or for avoiding pain, however such a reductive mental model is not useful work with in this context. Coercion in the context of leak (MICE) usually is understood as unwilling participant who is being blackmailed to leak. Money, Ideology and Ego are voluntary, Coercion is forced is the idea i believe. --- [1] I am talking about the conventionally held definition of Civil Disobedience, non-violent and public are generally accepted qualifiers . It is not really required under many definitions. Ellmann states that covert lawbreaking is just valid way of expressing your morality ( ideology ) as public disobedience. There are similar arguments for revolutionary and violent variations as well. It boils down does common(yours) morality allow deceit or violence under this situation. Morality being more subjective( you may agree violence is justified someone else will not) most popular commentators try to stick to non-violent and public conditions to make their case stronger and widely supported. Whether that public or non-violent is a component or not it doesn't matter. The point I am trying to make is: if is ideological then consequences will be readily accepted, otherwise it just common crime.
  - jjk166 5y ago
    I meant more like people smoking a bowl in their own home despite the fact it's technically illegal because they don't really give a shit. Maybe you jaywalk to stick it to the man, but most do it to get across the street faster. Many, I'd wager in fact most people won't do things or avoid doing things simply because it's the law. Consider Kohlberg's stages of moral development[0]. I would say if you're only doing something to avoid being imprisoned or killed, you're an unwilling participant being forced to perform the action. Even if the entity threatening to imprison or kill you has a monopoly on force, it's still a gun to your head. I don't know how it could be called money, ideology, or ego. [0] https://courses.lumenlearning.com/teachereducationx92x1/chapter/kohlbergs-stages-of-moral-development/ https://courses.lumenlearning.com/teachereducationx92x1/chap...

samhw 5y ago

> Everything is ideological Pizza isn't ideological. Birds aren't ideological. Things that are explicitly in the domain of ideology are, yes, ideological. There's no such thing as 'no accent' just because you have the dominant accent, and no such thing as 'no ideology' just because you follow the dominant ideology. Your rationale is a bit like people who consider climate change protests to be 'political', but themselves, and their desire to ignore them and go to work, to be ... well, just, normal. Or something like that. > Do keep in mind not everyone's first language is English This is fair enough. I wasn't intending to mock your English, I just thought it was a funny accidental property of your message. I've absolutely made the same mistakes myself in the past!

jjk166 5y ago

The belief that laws ought to be followed is an ideology. There are also plenty of people who refuse to obey laws for ideological reasons. There are non-ideological reasons to follow laws as well, such as avoiding punishment, but that would presumably fall under coercion.

manquer 5y ago
If refusing to obey laws for ideological reasons they are doing some form of civil disobedience, that is still obeying the "law"[1]. Even when refusing to follow a specific law you still follow the Law, the point is that you willingly accept the consequence of your (in)action as per that law, i.e. that usually means go to jail. Thoreau's seminal essay or Gandhi or King's(and many others) writings talk about the topic in length . King actually frames civil disobedience as the expression of highest respect for the law. All behavior is motivated by either seeking gratification/pleasure or for avoiding pain, however such a reductive mental model is not useful work with in this context. Coercion in the context of leak (MICE) usually is understood as unwilling participant who is being blackmailed to leak. Money, Ideology and Ego are voluntary, Coercion is forced is the idea i believe. --- [1] I am talking about the conventionally held definition of Civil Disobedience, non-violent and public are generally accepted qualifiers . It is not really required under many definitions. Ellmann states that covert lawbreaking is just valid way of expressing your morality ( ideology ) as public disobedience. There are similar arguments for revolutionary and violent variations as well. It boils down does common(yours) morality allow deceit or violence under this situation. Morality being more subjective( you may agree violence is justified someone else will not) most popular commentators try to stick to non-violent and public conditions to make their case stronger and widely supported. Whether that public or non-violent is a component or not it doesn't matter. The point I am trying to make is: if is ideological then consequences will be readily accepted, otherwise it just common crime.
- jjk166 5y ago
  I meant more like people smoking a bowl in their own home despite the fact it's technically illegal because they don't really give a shit. Maybe you jaywalk to stick it to the man, but most do it to get across the street faster. Many, I'd wager in fact most people won't do things or avoid doing things simply because it's the law. Consider Kohlberg's stages of moral development[0]. I would say if you're only doing something to avoid being imprisoned or killed, you're an unwilling participant being forced to perform the action. Even if the entity threatening to imprison or kill you has a monopoly on force, it's still a gun to your head. I don't know how it could be called money, ideology, or ego. [0] https://courses.lumenlearning.com/teachereducationx92x1/chapter/kohlbergs-stages-of-moral-development/ https://courses.lumenlearning.com/teachereducationx92x1/chap...