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> I don't want rust in the kernel. As a small time developer making a hardware product, the investment to understand the kernel and how to build drivers is alre

> I don't want rust in the kernel. As a small time developer making a hardware product, the investment to understand the kernel and how to build drivers is already huge. There's a crucial part missing: the investment [...] to build (memory) unsafe drivers. I find it very troubling when memory unsafe language programmers don't weigh memory safety at all in their views. (note that this doesn't necessarily refer to Rust; there's people who swear that one can build drivers also in Golang, so assuming that is realistic, the same reasoning applies)

NextHendrix 5y ago
Wouldn't it make more sense to use a much more mature safety-centric language with a proper language spec like Ada?
- oxnrtr 5y ago
  No.
- mustache_kimono 5y ago
  Ada maybe isn't very well adapted to kernel code? From what I know of Ada, doesn't it get it's memory safety from either a GC or not freeing memory entirely? That is -- ownership rules are pretty new to Ada/SPARK. C-style syntax and community interest also favor Rust. This spec argument has always seemed like a red-herring to me. Can you explain why the Ada spec would be a significant factor in this instance?
  - modshatereality 5y ago
    It's always fun to read peoples drive-by opinions about the only decent language IMO. Ada is highly compatible with C code. For dynamic allocations with "ownership" there is the concept of memory pools which CAN use a GC if thats how you choose to implement the pool allocator.
    - mustache_kimono 5y ago
      Haha, I'm sorry if it seemed like I ever knew what I was talking about. I thought asking questions would make it clear that I don't. Remain interested in the potential advantages of Ada compared to Rust for Linux kernel development, if you would care to point me in the right direction.
  - NextHendrix 5y ago
    >Ada maybe isn't very well adapted to kernel code? From what I know of Ada, doesn't it get it's memory safety from either a GC or not freeing memory entirely? That is -- ownership rules are pretty new to Ada/SPARK. I think GC is optional with Ada, as far as I know the memory safety comes from raising exceptions (or refusing to compile) when it detects memory-unsafe operations (array bounds checking etc). >C-style syntax and community interest also favor Rust. That's fair, C-like languages are instantly familiar with software people and rust seems to have a more hip image than old man fuddy-duddy Ada. >This spec argument has always seemed like a red-herring to me. Can you explain why the Ada spec would be a significant factor in this instance? I'm not arguing for Ada over Rust (I'm not a software guy) so I don't mean it as a red herring, but wouldn't a suite of static verification tools and a formally verified compiler require a spec to be tested against?
    - mustache_kimono 5y ago
      Re: spec, not if the spec is implementation (and project's values) defined. I mean -- the Rust project has a ridiculous # of tests which define language behavior without having an ISO standard. Yes, implementation defined behavior in C is usually a place where C compiler engineers trade safety for speed. Yes, that's usually a bad trade. However, I'd look at this situation re: Rust vs. C in a different way though -- the Rust project's values are why defining a standard is less important. I think a spec is often a red herring because a bunch of folks living in the slum of C, when asked if they would all like to move into Rust's nice 3 bedroom by the park, instead always seem to ask: Wouldn't it be better to form a committee about building us a cathedral? Ada might be better. Someone should try it, but until then I'll take Rust.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Honestly if Ada hasn't caught on in the intervening 30 years (despite a lengthy government issued monopoly) then it probably isn't a good choice. A more mature Rust would be nice, but it's gravy at this point.
- ahupp 5y ago
  (caveat: I've read a bit about Ada but don't have any deep familiarity with it) Ada is safe compared to the other languages of its day, but I'm not sure it compares favorably with Rust. IIRC it does have more of a focus on safe arithmetic rather than memory safety.
  - FabienC 5y ago
    The focus of Ada is not on safe arithmetic only, it's on functional safety at large: the code does what it is specified to do and nothing else. Ada shines in its specification power, how developers can express what the code is supposed to do (strong typing, ranges, contracts, invariants, generics, etc.). And then you can either check your code at "compile time" with SPARK [1], that provides a mathematical proof that you code follows the specification. SPARK also proves that you don't have buffer overflows or division by zero for instance. Or you can have checks inserted in the run-time code which greatly improves the benefits of testing as every deviation from specifications will be detected, not only the ones you decided to check in your tests. In terms of memory safety, Ada always had an edge on C/C++ because of the lower usage of pointers (see parameter modes [2]) and the emphasis on stack allocation. Now with the introduction of ownership in SPARK it's getting on par with Rust on that topic. [1] https://learn.adacore.com/courses/intro-to-spark/chapters/05_Proof_Of_Functional_Correctness.html#advanced-contracts https://learn.adacore.com/courses/intro-to-spark/chapters/05... [2] https://learn.adacore.com/courses/intro-to-ada/chapters/subprograms.html#parameter-modes https://learn.adacore.com/courses/intro-to-ada/chapters/subp...
    - quotemstr 5y ago
      Interesting. I wasn't aware that safety in Ada had developed to this point. Maybe I'll have to take another look at the language!
- m463 5y ago
  I remember writing Ada (long ago) and my take was: it's nice to work on existing Ada code, but I thought it was tedious to write new code. there was also a lot of unchecked conversion under the hood. (disclaimer: I haven't really paid attention to newer versions of Ada)
tialaramex 5y ago
Note that Rust's safety proposition is different than Go's in a way that's significant for Linux beyond the obvious. (Safe) Rust is Data Race Free. You can mistakenly write a data race in Go, just as you could in C, and, even though under normal circumstances Go feels like it's memory safe, once you've got a data race all bets are off and you potentially no longer have memory safety. In (safe) Rust you can't write a data race, so, this can't happen. If you write simple serial programs, you don't care, your programs never have data races because they have no concurrency and therefore can't possibly have concurrent memory writes. But obviously Linux is not a serial program.
- pa7ch 5y ago
  Its also important to note that for most systems security critical memory safety is a REALLY big deal, but safety from crashes due to data races is generally not a big deal. Rust has trade-offs to accomplish this. We proven time and time again we can't write safe c/c++ code from a security perspective. I don't think we've proven that crashing now and then to fix our data races is a bad outcome. There are always bugs to be fixed.
  - tialaramex 5y ago
    The consequence of a data race isn't (necessarily) limited to "crashing now and then". The big problem is SC/DRF. Most languages promise (at best) your program is sequentially consistent if data race free. And it turns out we can't debug non-trivial programs unless they're sequentially consistent because it hurts our brains too much. Causality is something we're all used to in the real world. The man hits the ball with the bat, then the ball's trajectory changes, because it struck the bat. Sequentially consistent programs are the same. X was five, then we doubled it, now it's ten. But without sequential consistency that's not how your program works at all. The ball goes flying off over the wall around the field, then the pitcher throws the ball, the ball lands in the catcher's glove, the umpire calls it, the batter hits the ball, and yet at the same time misses the ball... We doubled X, now it's five, but before we doubled it that was nine or sixteen? What?
  - masklinn 5y ago
b20000 5y ago
read the kernel docs and follow best practices. the code is reviewed by thousands of developers, so chances are what makes in into the kernel tree is pretty good. i don’t need rust. thanks!
- mlindner 5y ago
  Anecdotes from kernel maintainers is that memory unsafe code gets pas reviewers all the time. There was even that ethically questionable study that tried and succeed in getting vulnerabilities inserted into the kernel.
- pizza234 5y ago
  First, I've generalized to memory-safe languages, not necessarily Rust. Second, this is exactly the overconfidence that I find troubling. Vulnerabilities caused by memory unsafety are real, pervasive, and inevitable. A few resources you should look at: - the official reports/post by Mozilla and Microsoft about the percentage of vulnerabilities caused by memory unsafety - the mailing lists with the Linux kernel issues (I don't imply any severity; just the amount) There are many summarized posts for the lazier, and I'm talking about high profile authors (or authors writing on behalf of high profile companies). Here's a semi-random one: https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/18/we-need-a-safer-systems-programming-language https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/18/we-need-a-safer-s...
  - b20000 5y ago
    not everyone using linux making a device cares about vulnerabilities. there is no root password on my device and it is not networked.

NextHendrix 5y ago

Wouldn't it make more sense to use a much more mature safety-centric language with a proper language spec like Ada?

oxnrtr 5y ago
No.
mustache_kimono 5y ago
Ada maybe isn't very well adapted to kernel code? From what I know of Ada, doesn't it get it's memory safety from either a GC or not freeing memory entirely? That is -- ownership rules are pretty new to Ada/SPARK. C-style syntax and community interest also favor Rust. This spec argument has always seemed like a red-herring to me. Can you explain why the Ada spec would be a significant factor in this instance?
- modshatereality 5y ago
  It's always fun to read peoples drive-by opinions about the only decent language IMO. Ada is highly compatible with C code. For dynamic allocations with "ownership" there is the concept of memory pools which CAN use a GC if thats how you choose to implement the pool allocator.
  - mustache_kimono 5y ago
    Haha, I'm sorry if it seemed like I ever knew what I was talking about. I thought asking questions would make it clear that I don't. Remain interested in the potential advantages of Ada compared to Rust for Linux kernel development, if you would care to point me in the right direction.
- NextHendrix 5y ago
  >Ada maybe isn't very well adapted to kernel code? From what I know of Ada, doesn't it get it's memory safety from either a GC or not freeing memory entirely? That is -- ownership rules are pretty new to Ada/SPARK. I think GC is optional with Ada, as far as I know the memory safety comes from raising exceptions (or refusing to compile) when it detects memory-unsafe operations (array bounds checking etc). >C-style syntax and community interest also favor Rust. That's fair, C-like languages are instantly familiar with software people and rust seems to have a more hip image than old man fuddy-duddy Ada. >This spec argument has always seemed like a red-herring to me. Can you explain why the Ada spec would be a significant factor in this instance? I'm not arguing for Ada over Rust (I'm not a software guy) so I don't mean it as a red herring, but wouldn't a suite of static verification tools and a formally verified compiler require a spec to be tested against?
  - mustache_kimono 5y ago
    Re: spec, not if the spec is implementation (and project's values) defined. I mean -- the Rust project has a ridiculous # of tests which define language behavior without having an ISO standard. Yes, implementation defined behavior in C is usually a place where C compiler engineers trade safety for speed. Yes, that's usually a bad trade. However, I'd look at this situation re: Rust vs. C in a different way though -- the Rust project's values are why defining a standard is less important. I think a spec is often a red herring because a bunch of folks living in the slum of C, when asked if they would all like to move into Rust's nice 3 bedroom by the park, instead always seem to ask: Wouldn't it be better to form a committee about building us a cathedral? Ada might be better. Someone should try it, but until then I'll take Rust.
throwaway894345 5y ago
Honestly if Ada hasn't caught on in the intervening 30 years (despite a lengthy government issued monopoly) then it probably isn't a good choice. A more mature Rust would be nice, but it's gravy at this point.
ahupp 5y ago
(caveat: I've read a bit about Ada but don't have any deep familiarity with it) Ada is safe compared to the other languages of its day, but I'm not sure it compares favorably with Rust. IIRC it does have more of a focus on safe arithmetic rather than memory safety.
- FabienC 5y ago
  The focus of Ada is not on safe arithmetic only, it's on functional safety at large: the code does what it is specified to do and nothing else. Ada shines in its specification power, how developers can express what the code is supposed to do (strong typing, ranges, contracts, invariants, generics, etc.). And then you can either check your code at "compile time" with SPARK [1], that provides a mathematical proof that you code follows the specification. SPARK also proves that you don't have buffer overflows or division by zero for instance. Or you can have checks inserted in the run-time code which greatly improves the benefits of testing as every deviation from specifications will be detected, not only the ones you decided to check in your tests. In terms of memory safety, Ada always had an edge on C/C++ because of the lower usage of pointers (see parameter modes [2]) and the emphasis on stack allocation. Now with the introduction of ownership in SPARK it's getting on par with Rust on that topic. [1] https://learn.adacore.com/courses/intro-to-spark/chapters/05_Proof_Of_Functional_Correctness.html#advanced-contracts https://learn.adacore.com/courses/intro-to-spark/chapters/05... [2] https://learn.adacore.com/courses/intro-to-ada/chapters/subprograms.html#parameter-modes https://learn.adacore.com/courses/intro-to-ada/chapters/subp...
  - quotemstr 5y ago
    Interesting. I wasn't aware that safety in Ada had developed to this point. Maybe I'll have to take another look at the language!
m463 5y ago
I remember writing Ada (long ago) and my take was: it's nice to work on existing Ada code, but I thought it was tedious to write new code. there was also a lot of unchecked conversion under the hood. (disclaimer: I haven't really paid attention to newer versions of Ada)

tialaramex 5y ago

Note that Rust's safety proposition is different than Go's in a way that's significant for Linux beyond the obvious. (Safe) Rust is Data Race Free. You can mistakenly write a data race in Go, just as you could in C, and, even though under normal circumstances Go feels like it's memory safe, once you've got a data race all bets are off and you potentially no longer have memory safety. In (safe) Rust you can't write a data race, so, this can't happen. If you write simple serial programs, you don't care, your programs never have data races because they have no concurrency and therefore can't possibly have concurrent memory writes. But obviously Linux is not a serial program.

pa7ch 5y ago
Its also important to note that for most systems security critical memory safety is a REALLY big deal, but safety from crashes due to data races is generally not a big deal. Rust has trade-offs to accomplish this. We proven time and time again we can't write safe c/c++ code from a security perspective. I don't think we've proven that crashing now and then to fix our data races is a bad outcome. There are always bugs to be fixed.
- tialaramex 5y ago
  The consequence of a data race isn't (necessarily) limited to "crashing now and then". The big problem is SC/DRF. Most languages promise (at best) your program is sequentially consistent if data race free. And it turns out we can't debug non-trivial programs unless they're sequentially consistent because it hurts our brains too much. Causality is something we're all used to in the real world. The man hits the ball with the bat, then the ball's trajectory changes, because it struck the bat. Sequentially consistent programs are the same. X was five, then we doubled it, now it's ten. But without sequential consistency that's not how your program works at all. The ball goes flying off over the wall around the field, then the pitcher throws the ball, the ball lands in the catcher's glove, the umpire calls it, the batter hits the ball, and yet at the same time misses the ball... We doubled X, now it's five, but before we doubled it that was nine or sixteen? What?
- masklinn 5y ago

b20000 5y ago

read the kernel docs and follow best practices. the code is reviewed by thousands of developers, so chances are what makes in into the kernel tree is pretty good. i don’t need rust. thanks!

mlindner 5y ago
Anecdotes from kernel maintainers is that memory unsafe code gets pas reviewers all the time. There was even that ethically questionable study that tried and succeed in getting vulnerabilities inserted into the kernel.
pizza234 5y ago
First, I've generalized to memory-safe languages, not necessarily Rust. Second, this is exactly the overconfidence that I find troubling. Vulnerabilities caused by memory unsafety are real, pervasive, and inevitable. A few resources you should look at: - the official reports/post by Mozilla and Microsoft about the percentage of vulnerabilities caused by memory unsafety - the mailing lists with the Linux kernel issues (I don't imply any severity; just the amount) There are many summarized posts for the lazier, and I'm talking about high profile authors (or authors writing on behalf of high profile companies). Here's a semi-random one: https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/18/we-need-a-safer-systems-programming-language https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/18/we-need-a-safer-s...
- b20000 5y ago
  not everyone using linux making a device cares about vulnerabilities. there is no root password on my device and it is not networked.